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Episode 41 — Do You Listen?

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About this episode

If your closest friends were instructed to list your three most prominent qualities, would “good listener” be among them? If not, tune in to this episode to learn how to be an Olympic level listener. In fact, tune in especially if you question the value of being a good listener. If you are already a good listener, you are probably going to tune in without further prompting — because you value good listening. So, everybody, tune in! Read “Why Communication Fails and How to Fix It“.

Hosted by Bitesize Bio’s own Dr. Nick Oswald featuring Kenneth Vogt of Vera Claritas.

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This is an automated transcript and may not be 100% accurate.

Nick Oswald Hello, and welcome to another edition of The Happy Scientist podcast. This is the place to be if you want to become a happier, healthier and more productive scientist. I’m Nick Oswald, the founder of Bitesizebio.com and with me, as always, is Mr Kenneth Vogt and my friend mentor the Bitesizebio team coach and the founder of the executive mentoring company Vera Claritas. Today, and all other Happy Scientists podcast episodes you get to benefit from his words of wisdom to help you increase your performance enjoyment and success in the lab and beyond. In this episode we’ll be discussing something that may be holding you back without you even knowing that it’s doing it, that is, do you listen. So Ken, let’s hear what you have to say about listening.

Kenneth Vogt All right now I think most of us probably are surrounded by people that don’t listen very well. And we’d love to fix that problem, but you know what the only peer person you can fix this problem about is you, you have to work on your listening. And you will by example, show that to others, some of them will pick up on it and be benefited and some of them won’t and there’s nothing you can do about those folks. And you can’t get fixated on all those other people that don’t listen and you can’t use that as an excuse, as to why you don’t listen. So I guess the, the, the first question to ask would be why listen, what’s the point, and you know. I think Nick probably have encountered a lot of people that are very, very smart and you might, they might you might think that they think like, why should I listen? I’m the smartest guy in the room. And if that, that may well be true, and this may be true of many of the listeners out there, you might be the smartest person in the room. Does that mean there’s no value in you listening, well, I mean that’s just not true, and, if you look at the purpose of listening, it becomes clear. A lot of people fain listening, that is they’re hearing what’s being said around them, but they’re only doing it, so they can be prepared to reply, they’re not actually listening, a person who’s listening is, is striving to understand now that doesn’t mean that you lack understanding. Or that you’re, you’re not as smart as the other people there. It’s you’re trying to understand what the other person is saying, what they’re, what they’re trying to communicate, what they’re trying to get across. And that has nothing to do with how smart, you are is understanding somebody you know if you’re, if you’re talking to a three year old and they’re talking in very, very simple English or whatever language they’re speaking and sometimes it can be very hard and you have to put a great effort into listening. But, are you doing it, so you can give them a witty reply, No they’re a three year old you’re trying to figure out what they’re talking about.So it’s about understanding and the fact is, is that, no matter how educated you are or how erudite that you are on whatever topic is is under discussion, you need input. The reason you got erudite, the reason you are an expert at whatever you’re an expert in is because you got inputs from people that knew things, and in some cases even got input from people that didn’t know things but they spurred questions that then you sought answers to it, it was worthwhile. Now, another thing that happens here is that, in whatever we’re doing we’re not doing in a silo it’s so this it’s a social environment and it’s funny we think of Sciences as a social thing, but it is, there’s a lot of collaboration, a lot of cooperation and the fact is, is that those people around you.They are aching for somebody to listen to them, listening is a fabulous opportunity for you. Now listening becomes then a leadership quality, it becomes a charismatic quality, something that people are really looking for so it just the the active listings usable for you, even if you don’t gain anything from what you hear, the fact that you are giving other people attention is very valuable to them, and that in turn causes you to build trust with them and credibility with them. Because this is a person that doesn’t just dismiss me they they care about what I have to say and that’s especially true if somebody has issues with self esteem, if they look at you as an expert or as a leader or as a as a boss in a in a work setting or and they may realize first is paying attention me this person is is giving attention to what i’m saying wow that’s really, really valuable. So the the other thing that happens to this is social interaction goes two ways, you know if you listen to other people they’re more likely to listen to you, and of course we all want, that is, that just those other people like to have people listen to them, we like to have people listen to us so it’s a it’s an opportunity to go first but it’s a valuable opportunity to go first because you’re setting the agenda and you’re showing people the way it’s done and and you can then point out to people in your, in a positive way, perhaps, and certain settings like you know when you brought this and that up to me. Remember, I listened to you, I really heard what you had to say, I gave you a chance to to get out your whole point you know and so i’d like you to do the same for me. So there’s, there’s advantages, then to listening so i’ll pause for a second there Nick and I listen to you is, do you have anything to offer about why we should listen.

Nick Oswald Yeah it’s very wide I mean my, my immediately, immediate sort of reaction to that you know listening again in a scientific set you know, a scientific research setting, is there are you know there is two side to it. One is, two asides to not listening if you like,  one is arrogance, you know be is the opposite of that it’s being arrogant, arrogant and thinking that you know better than other people, which is is again you hit on it by saying that science is a social endeavor it’s about combining knowledge. and quite often you see people selling themselves because they think that they are they either don’t listen they either think that they’re prevailing, their view is the correct one or they think that the, you know, the group view you know, a fear if there’s two schools of thought, for example on a on a particular topic you think their view is, is correct to the don’t listen to the other one. Sure, and again that’s classic group think, and you know exactly how science works, but you see it all the time. So one one pitfall of not listening is, is that sort of trap of, of creating a silo, creating a place where the knowledge stops the knowledge transfer stops. The other the other angle of that, apart from arrogance is that sci sciences all, you know in yourself in the in the work you’re doing listening is kind of the same as being open open to input, and again, another pitfall is just not between you and your and other people, but between you and your work, are you listening to what, to the inputs you’re receiving or are you, you know the results you’re receiving the results you’re seeing in the field around you or you siloing yourself to that and and and creating a, putting yourself on a tangent which is further and further from the truth, because you are fixated on the idea that you’re right that’s two, that’s two things that i’ve personally seen in scientists in specific you know specific scientist, certain scientists that are the direct you know direct results of not listening. And they are in complete opposition to what it means to be a scientist.

Kenneth Vogt Right, so you mentioned a couple things that this, this triggered for me to, to not trigger it’s not the right word that has meaning these days.That that prompted me to do a few things one is that listening is not just about hearing a person speak there’s a lot of things to listen to there’s data to listen to and there’s there’s other kinds of inputs that that we listened to, sometimes there are other social inputs and it might be certain, a  person’s manner or their body language or other things, but but there’s a lot of input is the input of your education as an example and the input a prevailing views on things, and you know that’s a big deal that’s interesting, I had asked you the question, what do you have to say about why listen and you spend a lot of time talking about why don’t you listen. And by the way, that’s that’s great because that’s where I was headed next thing you know you arrogance is a is a beautiful beautiful thing to point out and it’s it’s it is pervasive in science and it’s funny I had I had written down a different word for that i’d called a pridefullness, but the implication was the same thing and

Nick Oswald I think it’s a bit mean to say it’s prevailing and science, I think it should be prevailing in society really.

Kenneth Vogt Okay.

Nick Oswald  People just don’t listen.

Kenneth Vogt yeah I don’t mean to single out science, I only only science has that prevailing problem but science certainly has that prevailing problem even as society does.

Nick Oswald However, before it just I know this is a slight tangent but that that is the you know the whole idea of that’s humaneness is being is being arrogant and the the way that I see is that being a scientist as as like squashing don’t the human part of yourself and becoming the spock part of yourself. You know you have to, you know so and that and the arrogance of the thinking you’re right or the lack of open mindedness, is the as part of the human part and not part of the spock, spock really open minded but.

Kenneth Vogt yeah well I mean you know the notion of prevailing attitude so let’s say that you belong to the camp, that is, in the majority on some topic does that make you more right than the camp that’s in the minority. Actually, no, we don’t know for sure when there are multiple prevailing views, it is quite possible that a minority view turns out to be the correct one. Now, now i’m not, i’m not arguing in favor of alternative facts and that kind of that kind of stuff i’m, I mean. When, when we don’t know for sure about something, and there are multiple possibilities it’s important for us to listen to all possibilities and weigh them all and to take them into consideration. Now i’d like to dive in a little deeper into how is it we do this not listening thing, what do we do, what are we individually do when we’re not listening. So one of the things that happens is we have this voice in our own head and we all have it and it’s talking to us all the time, and so, somebody starts presenting their view that is different than the view that we are personally holding. So what happens that voice in our own head starts getting louder and louder and louder and it’s trying to shout down this other person and, and even though we’re looking like we’re listening because we’re not talking over them and, and you know when we’re still present there we’re not doing something else we’re not listening, because the voice in our own head is just being too loud. Another thing that voice in your own head can do is be insistent that is it may not be shouting them down, as it were, but it might be just automatically dismissing them like no look i’m right, I know i’ve checked this out i’m certain about this i’ve been an expert on this for a long time they don’t know anything you know and so we’re doing the anti spock thing there we’re not being open, and you know being open to input is very, very valuable being closed to input will make you not listen that’s possible you’ve had bad experiences with listening in the past, and maybe you listen to something in it and it hurt you, you know when I say heard that I mean necessarily caused you physical harm, but in some way you found it really difficult to listen to that, now it might have been difficult because i’m going to look like a fool that I if I change my position. It might be difficult in that i’ve held a position that i’m increasingly looking to to believe as foolish now and I hate to admit it, so you know we’re we’re worried about about that kind of thing or it could be something we really, really did money here, you know we’re, we’re looking at the data and we can see that this experiment has failed and we really, really, really didn’t want it to fail and so those are reasons why you might cut yourself off listening like how want to hear that and I want to see that.

Kenneth Vogt You know so there’s there’s all these possible blocks of why you wouldn’t listen another thing is, you may stop listening to other people, because you are so bothered that they’re not listening to you, It it’s like, why should I give them the respect of attention when they won’t do that for me. And we can we cut ourselves off from input because of that, because now it becomes a personal thing now it’s it’s not even about what’s being discussed it’s about the social interaction but can we set the social interaction aside long enough to get the data that would be useful to us to get the input, you know, whatever whatever it is, we might want for that. So, so the so I guess what i’m saying is, if you haven’t been a great listener, in the past you’ve probably had a lot of good reasons why so don’t don’t beat yourself up about it, if you haven’t been a great listener you haven’t been a great listener, so be it. The question is, do you want the advantages, do you want the gains that come from being a good listener, if you do well, then you got to learn how to listen and if you’ve not been a good listener, in the past it’s because you don’t know how. And I mean that might be a little hard to hear anything man, how is it possible that I don’t know how to listen i’ve got you know i’m i’ve moved up in the world, so far and i’ve I got so educated and I got into the real real world and i’m in the real lab and i’m. You know I did all that without listening it’s possible and, in fact, if you look around at the people that you work with or even work for you might realize wow a lot of them didn’t to you know because they sure don’t listen very good down and probably that’s not a new behavior for them it’s more likely if somebody is a listener, they that some of these good listening they probably been a good listener, but if somebody is in that listening, it might be a lifelong endeavor not listening so.

Kenneth Vogt How to become a good listener, and this is, this is just a tool it’s just a thing you learn in it, and it makes me think about the way Bitesizebio works, you know you as as a PhD scientist you’ve gained a lot of education, you know about a lot of things, but Bitesizebio you listen on how to do things. How to do specific tasks that are useful in in your scientific endeavor well this isn’t, this is another thing like that this is something that will be useful in your scientific endeavor, and that is how to listen so i’m going to break it down to a two step process, it’s pretty straightforward, and it’s it’s simple but not easy, as simple things often, often, are often simple things are hard because there’s nowhere to hide this is not a 19 step process where you can you can hide and being bogged down in this step, or that stuff it’s pretty simple it’s going to be the setup and then the act okay, first you have to hear, next you have to listen, so let me differentiate between hearing and listening so if we’re going to put a definition to hear to hear is to perceive with the ear of the sound made by someone. Now that’s, that is narrowing it down to the simplest possible thing about hearing, that is, you know hearing what words that are spoken to you. Obviously hearing could be could be broadened out more to to hearing data that’s being presented, or is is is being made available to your or any other kind of input, but, but the point is it’s about perception, something is going on in front of you some kind of input is happening, are you going to perceive it and it’s up to you. If you’re going to perceive it or not, hearing is perceiving So if you want to perceive what somebody is saying to you how do you do that, well, there are some simple things and and when when I say they’re simple again they’re gonna be like well I knew that yeah, but do you find it hard to do, are you willing to do it so, for instance, when somebody is speaking to you. Do you look at them. Now I, i’m sure we’ve all encountered folks that man, they just won’t look in the eye and and they’re they’re looking everywhere but at you, they’re they’re bouncing all over the place they’re looking at their shoes they’re staring at their phone they’re looking over your head and out and beyond it’s a lack of engagement.

Kenneth Vogt If you really want to hear what somebody is saying if you’re having trouble hearing what they’re saying, engage with them get more connected to them, because it may be, you know all you’re hearing is waa waa waa waa waa waa that’s because, because your attention is elsewhere, bring your attention back to them, and you know if there’s a reason why you’re having difficulty giving them your attention well that’s something you can look at in yourself like why don’t I want to give this person attention. Why don’t I want to look at them, what you know, why do I want to focus on something other than them while they’re talking, you know those are all things you can you can take offline and look at in yourself and go what is up with that. But in that moment it’s just look at them and and sometimes it’s just a matter of practice when you get used to the idea that i’m just gonna i’m just gonna look at this person, while they’re talking and it may be that you know, a person of the opposite sex we feel like it’s a little intrusive or like well they’re not my they’re not my significant other so I shouldn’t I shouldn’t look at him like that you’re like. Well, you know just look at them or they’re my boss, and so it’s disrespectful for me to look them in the eye or there are there, there are my subordinate that i’ll intimidate them if I look at them too hard. Well, we know the ways to do this without being you know stepping over the line socially it’s not that hard. Now I mean some design, you know, on a spectrum, I understand they may have difficulty with that, but most of us aren’t most of us can we can deal with the social environment and, and so do it take a chance and look at that person and you’re gonna find out it’s not that bad. All the reasons you had in your head for not looking at someone as their speaking, are going to melt away when you just get more experience with it or or haven’t been more of your your present common experience, because you may well be able to look back at other times in your life when this wasn’t an issue. You didn’t have trouble looking that kindergarten teacher in the eye and you didn’t have trouble looking, looking your friends and your buddies in the eye when you were a kid you know. Re engage with that because it’s very, very valuable when it comes to listening. Now, once you’re looking at somebody that’s, I mean they’re talking there’s there’s something else that’s going on there that you pay attention to that you can that you can parse. So, like noting the tone of their voice, noting whether or not they’re making eye contact with you, noting their body language all that stuff is part of the communication and you can gain so much from that. Now what I don’t want to recommend here is that, don’t try and translate what somebody is saying, in other words don’t take whatever they’re saying and put it through some kind of filter and say, well, what they’re really saying is this other thing and if that sounds a little murky to you i’m gonna we’re gonna have something in the show notes that’s a link to an article that’s called why communication fails, and how to fix it in a little talk about what it is that we do when when we’re listening to people in that regard that translation process and how to how to parse it apart, so that we don’t, don’t fail in that regard, now I realized sometimes some translation is necessary, sometimes people don’t say what they mean.

Kenneth Vogt But generally speaking, or getting enough information that we don’t have to try and figure out what they mean they’re they’re giving us enough clues and right in what they’re saying so give them a chance and and the next thing you can do with somebody like that is don’t interrupt them, let them get out what they have to say, because some folks some folks it’s a little bit of a struggle. So they may have to say it, a couple of times before they get across exactly what they mean, and if we are impatient with them or if we’re trying to steer the conversation we’re never going to hear what it is they were trying to say and we don’t we don’t lose anything if it if they’re bringing up a viewpoint that we think it’s just totally ridiculous and it’s just completely wrong we’re not harmed to hear it. So go ahead and hear it and opposing viewpoints often have a few good good points in them, even if we generally think they’re wrong. So it’s good to hear the foundation of their points, even if their ultimate conclusions are wrong so i’m you know. That, that’s all part of that initial hearing process is that truly opening ourselves up in making use of, of the social cues to get the most we can. So then we go to the next point of actually listening and we’ll give a definition to that, to listen is to give once attention to sound. Now as we’ve said here that’s just how we would apply it to hearing someone speak, but you know the notion is listening, is just giving attention, whatever it is, whatever inputs are coming. So if you want to hear sound of someone speaking you’re very much benefited to removed other distracting sounds, can you be in an environment where you can actually hear them talk. I realized sometimes you’re in a place where things are loud or there’s a lot of the people around and you don’t have that option, but sometimes you can say, can we step off to the side can can we turn off this machine, can you so that you can not have that bothering you in taking you away from what’s right in front of you, you will allow you to listen better. Now there, sounds aren’t the only distractions out there, and especially in the modern day world devices are a pox on society so if you really want to listen to somebody put down your phone, it’s tremendously rude to be trying to talk to somebody while you’re holding your phone in front of your face you’re not looking at them you’re not listening to them you’re paying attention to that phone and other people pick up on that too, and I say pick up on it it’s not hard to pick up on it’s right in their face, it’s rude, and we don’t like it to be done to us well if you’re gonna if you’re going to truly commit to listening to other people. In that moment, put down your phone, you know it’s going to be there 30 seconds later it’s going to be okay, you know you’re not an emergency room doctor that’s trying to save a patient’s life, you know, in the moment. So. There is, there, if if it’s important to hear this person to listen to this person give it the importance that it’s due. And and don’t try and multitask and we’ve talked about that, before a whole episode on it. With that. Looked at a very important study done by Stanford University you’re you’re not going to do a good job listening if you’re trying to do something else, the same time.

Kenneth Vogt Now, another thing you can do when you’re listening to somebody is, is to, to help prompt them so you’ll give them encouraging sounds and it might be, you know just the words that we say or phrases we use like uh huh, like really, okay go on. You just, you’re feeding them a reason to keep. Keep communicating to you, and you know, obviously it’s got to be appropriate, this i’m we’ve all been in situations where somebody’s done that in a placating way or like no like they’re treating us like like were a child and we don’t like that, but, but you can genuinely engage with somebody and without interrupting them the sounds you’re making our to encourage them to keep talking instead of trying to talk over them. And so they’re going to keep going, some people when you interrupt them, that will just shut them down they’ll stop trying to communicate. Other people will get angry and move the topic onto something else but either way you lose out you don’t you don’t get to listen to what it is they were going to offer. Another thing you can do is very useful when you’re having conversation with somebody and you want to listen to them is to repeat back to them what they said. And so, and they give you an example of that so, Nick i’d like you to like you to talk to me about something and I will, I will show you how to how, repeat back go ahead, Nick talk about something.

Nick Oswald wow okay. I just, just got back from two good two days of holiday, I was at a theme park with my kids. I went on all the roller coasters and then the last one I went on I hurt my back so i’m getting old.

Kenneth Vogt Oh boy so so you went on all the roller all the roller coaster with your kid and you hurt your back yep well we’ll get that.

Nick Oswald you listened.

Kenneth Vogt yeah and then so so here’s the thing it might be you say something like you know, I paraphrase back to then what you said, but you could say back to them exactly what they said. So you went down all the roller coasters that’s right, and when you went on the roller coaster you hurt your back all, right, you know, when when you say something back to somebody that they just said to you for sure they’re gonna agree with you, like wow this person really gets it, you know because they said exactly the same thing now sometimes they’re going to say something that you don’t agree with. But that doesn’t mean you can’t repeat it back to them because you’re not saying to them, I agree with you saying. So what you’re saying to me is. You went on a roller coaster and as a result it hurt your back I might look at that good that didn’t hurt your back your back was already hurt you shouldn’t never got on a roller coaster you know. You know, but I didn’t say that to Nick I I just repeated back to him what he said to me, but then he knew I heard him. The other thing that does is it gives people a clue okay this person is hearing the details that i’m offering so I can offer more details safely, you know, and and they’re going to give me the respect they deserve and that’s going to help you. So so repeating back with somebody says to them to you, even when you don’t agree with it is very valuable when it comes to listening they’re going to give you more as a result, another thing you can do is a is a technique called mirroring. And that is if you know, this is something you need to be physically present with somebody but actually start doing the same gestures they’re doing if they raised their hand down their chin you rest your hand on your chin.If they if they cross their arms you cross your arms if they lean back you lean back if they lean in you lean in if they smile you smile if they close their eyes, you close your eyes. It is amazing how much connection you both will feel in that setting if you start mirroring them. Now i’m not talking about doing it in a mocking way. You know it’s it’s not about over accentuating what they’re doing but you’ll see simple little things so they’ll cross one hand over the other or the or are or they’ll make a fist or the or they’ll open their hand. As you do that kind of thing that other person feels like this person is on the same page as me, and so it becomes easier for them to communicate and what’s good about, that is if. People often feel resistance communication so they’re afraid to say what’s really on their mind or to communicate what they really need to get across whereas if you make the environment such. That they feel it’s comfortable they’re going to be able to say whatever it is, they need to say and you’ll be able to hear what, what needed to be heard. The advantage of that is even if it’s something you wish wasn’t so or wasn’t fun day here you’re better off hearing them to not hear if it’s true right if it’s what’s really going on, you want to know what’s really going on, so mirroring will help you create an environment where you’re much more likely to actually get the input that you need. Another thing that you can do is this is, for the moment, suspend judgment so i’m not telling you, to you have to give up on judgment forever, although I wish you would but. i’m saying the baby step here is in the moment that the communication is happening, if you could just not judge, right now, whatever they’re saying. If you’re if you’re in there again if that voice in your head is got this is wrong, this first is stupid they’re uninformed they they’re clueless they don’t get it, you know you’re not going to hear anything that comes across level on be able to listen to her, so you can just put that judgment on hold for a while. And back to Nick’s reference to spock you can see spock is really good at that he can suspend judgment and just let the data role in no matter. No matter how much you jars what he already thought he knew, so you don’t worry about it just just take it in and we’ll worry about deciding what’s valuable or in our or not valuable later. And then finally man don’t translate and we’ve all been in that kind of situation where where you say you know i’m, what do you think about going to dinner oh so you hate my cooking is that right you don’t translate you just asked if you if, if you wanted to go to dinner, you know they didn’t have make comment on your cooking That was what was going on and we can we can always so many cycles by translating things, and then they get a bother to deny it, and sometimes they have to defend against that. And we’re totally off track, we no longer have heard anything they had to say a little and listen to it it’s just all gone so you know guard yourself from that translation.So those those are the two simple steps hear and then listen and we’ve talked about why it’s valuable to listen and even why you might not have listened in the past but. It doesn’t matter if you not been good at this in the past, that’s fine just start doing it and because you know how you get good at things practice practice practice. That way you’ll make it all the way to Carnegie hall as they say.

Nick Oswald Very good, I mean that’s, a that’s a really succinct. Light light shining session, how would you see that illuminating session on, on something that’s actually really, really important and it’s, it’s almost like it’s, it’s so prevalent in the world for people to not listen that, that it’s almost accepted. But in science it’s it’s doubly important I mean it’s important on a personal level template and it’s important on a Professional and up interpersonal level but it’s also important to all different layers of scientific discourse right up to you know from you know discussing what results with in the lab out to you know discourse within your field right out to if you’re you know if your. If your discipline touches in that if you really touches on that right out to scientific discourse and in society it’s more and more you just see people shutting off from the other side of the argument, and you know that’s fine for humans, but not for spot spot listen to every as to you know, even if they don’t agree Spock Spock has to take the input parse it and decide whether play you know decide In how to say it and fairly, whether it besides give it a fair hearing and decide whether it should be assimilated in any way into the input into the you know the conclusions and again, you just see so many people shutting off for not so many scientists shutting off for non logical reasons like you know this particular thing aligns with their politics or, Right, you know, this is the extreme it’s not it’s not every area that touches on that, but just to see that people doing that is kind of scientists do nice worrying to me when you see that because it’s. Sure we’re at where else is that happening that we’re not listening to things and we’re missing we’re missing we’re missing data we’re missing things that could literally save people’s lives because. You know it’s You know didn’t follow the norm so We just we just dismissed it.

Kenneth Vogt Right and anyway that was in anywhere in life that you do it is good, it is going to be beneficial and anywhere you’re good at, it will be transferable So if you do a better job of listening to your kids you’re going to do a better job of listening and work. And if you do a better job of listening the lab to do a better job of listening to your significant, significant other or or do your friends or your community and yeah everywhere, you get better at it will benefit every other place so it’s worth the effort.

Nick Oswald is definitely have ever done an episode on habits def.

Kenneth Vogt yeah we did.

Nick Oswald Yes, definitely a habit and I don’t know what i’m not gonna ask you, your yoda. The for me, one reason I don’t listen is it’s almost like I feel like I don’t have time to do that. But that’s a habit that’s a habit kind of i’ve got the next thing to do and i’m focused on the next thing rather than know and so that’s a habit that yeah again this.

Kenneth Vogt episode is gonna listen to me.

Nick Oswald So yeah.

Kenneth Vogt You can’t multitask when it comes to listening and you can’t give the voice in your head first place when somebody else’s talking just how it is yeah.

Nick Oswald Well that’s a good rule actually and it’s the habit of putting that rule into place isn’t it.

Kenneth Vogt yeah yeah yeah. Well, there’s a bunch of episodes that if go back to look at the episode on habits, the episode on multitasking we should have an episode on the voice in your head that’d be pretty good.

Nick Oswald really good, the voice in my head would love that one. The voices. All right, Okay, I think that’s a good break off before. Right so again thanks Ken and I really illuminating episode, as I said, and that’s definitely that’s definitely one to ponder and if you have any questions about you know what Ken is talking about today or any observations we’d be happy to hear from you in, In our Facebook group facebook.com/thehappyscientistclub, and you can catch up on all those episodes that Ken mentioned earlier, the one about habits, the one about voices in their head isn’t there multitasking he said as well. You can see all those bitesizebio.com/thehappyscientists were all of these podcast episodes are listed. And again, remember, if you haven’t done so already episodes 1 to 9 of the fundamentals of they will change your lives one to nine even more than the rest of the episodes. So, have a look at those if you haven’t looked at those already so that just leaves us to sign off. I say again thank you Ken for for your words of wisdom and we will see you all at the next episode.

Kenneth Vogt All right, bye now.

 

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