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Holly L. Aaron (UC Berkeley)

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About this episode

# 37 — Peter O’Toole’s guest for episode #37 of The Microscopists is Holly L. Aaron, Director of the CRL Molecular Imaging Center at the University of California Berkeley. Tune in to this candid episode and discover more about Holly’s aversion to grant writing, her plans for her self-built dream home on Hawaii, and why there’s nothing quite like the sight of lava flowing into the ocean. We’ll touch on the career challenges that Holly has faced (please fess up if you spill something on a microscope!), her barista skills, and what to do when you’re not remotely prepared for polar bears. All in this episode of The Microscopists.

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This is an automated transcript and may not be 100% accurate.

Intro/Outro (00:00:01):
Welcome to The Microscopists, a Bitesize Bio podcast hosted by Peter O’Toole, sponsored by Zeiss Microscopy. Today on The Microscopists.

Peter O’Toole (00:00:14):
Today on The Microscopists. I’m lucky to be joined by Holly L Aaron director, the CRL Molecular Imaging Center, University of California, Berkeley. And we discuss what excites her about her job.

Holly Aaron (00:00:27):
I would say it’s hard to give up microscopy. I, I love it. I love the community. I love I love the technology. I love all the different types of, of science that it touches

Peter O’Toole (00:00:43):
Her barista skills.

Holly Aaron (00:00:45):
I would consider doing it again. Maybe it’s it’s fun. Plus all the free coffee you could possibly want

Peter O’Toole (00:00:51):
Her love of the outdoors and Nature.

Holly Aaron (00:00:53):
There’s nothing like, you know, love of flowing into the ocean. There’s nothing like that.

Peter O’Toole (00:01:00):
And her plans for retirement.

Holly Aaron (00:01:03):
We wanna build a house, it’ll be completely off grid. We’ll have to catch water from the sky power from the sun,

Peter O’Toole (00:01:12):
All in this episode of The Microscopists. Welcome to this episode of The Microscopists. I’m Peter O’Toole from the University of York and today I’m joined by Holly Aaron from the Cancer Research Lab at UC Berkeley. How are you today? Holly?

Holly Aaron (00:01:36):
I’m good Peter,

Peter O’Toole (00:01:36):
Thank you for joining me today. Actually, I, I wanted to grab you before you retired. Cause I saw that email come up. I thought, oh, oh my goodness. No ways. So why are you retiring?

Holly Aaron (00:01:51):
Oh, that’s a million dollar question. You’re gonna start there. Huh?

Peter O’Toole (00:01:55):
I didn’t know. It was a dark question. Yeah, go on. Why? Why are you retiring?

Holly Aaron (00:02:02):
I mean I, wow. I didn’t think you’d start with the hardest question. I guess it’s it’s time um you know I’ve been doing this a long time and I’ve really enjoyed it and I’ve been very fortunate. And I’m ready to try something new, do something different. So get outside my comfort zone.

Peter O’Toole (00:02:32):
What is that something different?

Holly Aaron (00:02:35):
Well, I don’t know everything. So a lot of it’s up in the air. One of the main things is over 10 years ago, now my husband and I bought a piece of undeveloped property on the big island of Hawaii. And it’s literally just lava and weeds and nothing. And so we wanna build a house it’ll be completely off grid. We’ll have to catch water from the sky power from the sun all of these things. So you know, and we’ll build, build it ourselves. So that’s the, that’s the thing to kind of take me away from microscopy for a while.

Peter O’Toole (00:03:28):
That that’s, that sounds really scary to me cuz off grid also means off network.

Peter O’Toole (00:03:35):
Well, yeah, so right, exactly. No that’s terrifying, right? I mean there’s cell service there. Most of the time. But yeah, I mean power power will be a major thing. So batteries are important. Solar panels will be big. We’ll probably have a generator.

Peter O’Toole (00:03:59):
I, because I, I, I guess I came to know of you more through the internet and the courses that you run and everything else. Since I started my job at York and the confocal [Inaudible] yep. So, you know, obviously we get to know each other through that networking and then meetings afterwards. So actually it’s the internet, it’s every, it is so important and you are going off it

Holly Aaron (00:04:24):
Well, not entirely and not, I mean, no, I’m not leaving the internet. I mean, I hope I’m looking for, have you been on vacations without the internet? It’s fantastic.

Peter O’Toole (00:04:38):
Why would you do that? I couldn’t do it. I’m sure I couldn’t do it.

Holly Aaron (00:04:42):
No, it’s, it’s literally the best thing ever to ju it it’s really okay. Full disclosure. The first about day and a half is extremely difficult, right? Because it’s like, why are my devices not pinging or, or there’s no, no news. There’s nothing. No one’s calling no one’s texting is the world still out there, but Peter, when you get really away, that’s when your mind can relax and you can really, I don’t know for me, I, it, it feels wonderful and you can, it, it takes a little time. It takes a little time, but maybe it

Peter O’Toole (00:05:23):
Wouldn’t be, maybe I, maybe the internet for me is an addiction because of work. And maybe if I wasn’t didn’t have a job, then it wouldn’t be such a big thing. It is what it’s those emails wanting to keep on top of work all the time. So yeah, I I’ve had holidays where internet reception has been awful and you can only get it at five o’clock in the morning, but I’ll be awake at five and just, just tapping through on the phone, just a few emails and then going for a run or something. But yeah. So anyway, go back. So you started in your current position, I think in 2001.

Holly Aaron (00:05:55):
That’s correct. Yeah.

Peter O’Toole (00:05:57):
What were you doing before that?

Holly Aaron (00:06:00):
Before that I was working in a core at Genentech, so and I was there let’s see for not very long about a year and a half when they, it was actually a really exciting time to be there. Because that’s when they first went public. And so we had a big IPO party and their research building, there was only three research buildings at that point in time, so it was very small. And yeah, so I was there just briefly and then got sort of pulled back to Berkeley with the offer I couldn’t refuse if that makes sense.

Peter O’Toole (00:06:50):
So, so running the big microscopy core.

Holly Aaron (00:06:54):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, at the time it wasn’t a big microscopy core. It wasn’t, there wasn’t anything. So yeah basically a couple faculty had written National Science Foundation grant for a MRI, major research instrumentation grant and for a two photon microscope. And so they realized, I think at the time that they didn’t really know two photon and they should hire somebody to, to operate it. And so that was kind of the impetus of the core. And it’s interesting that they hired me, because I knew zero about two photon at that point in time, but I knew Confocal by then. So it just, it was a good stepping stone. And I was already living near Berkeley. So it was, it wasn’t a hard sell let’s just say to come buy new equipment and start a start a facility, which I, again, I didn’t really know everything that that meant, but I learned, I learned along the way.

Peter O’Toole (00:08:10):
So you started with one or two instruments. Yep. And how many instruments now do you have in the core?

Holly Aaron (00:08:18):
I think it’s 17 or 18,

Peter O’Toole (00:08:23):
So quite a big expansion. And I presume there was you at the start, you and you,

Holly Aaron (00:08:28):
You and yeah. Yeah. Me and myself and I, and

Peter O’Toole (00:08:31):
How many staff now?

Holly Aaron (00:08:34):
So right now there’s me and I have one full-time staff member, Heather Ives and I have one 5% staff scientists and a couple undergraduates

Peter O’Toole (00:08:51):
Part time data role. That’s grown. You’ve grown with the role and the role of grown with you, I presume.

Holly Aaron (00:08:58):
Yeah. Yeah. That’s fair to say.

Peter O’Toole (00:09:01):
Is there anything you’d have changed or done differently?

Holly Aaron (00:09:06):
Woo. That’s an interesting question. Yes, absolutely I probably would’ve advocated for more staff earlier. And maybe more often I think, you know thinking about leaving and about someone coming in I would, so here’s the thing. So I never really wanna to write grants and I avoided it for a very long time. I helped with the grants and I, you know, helped put them together and organize everything, but I, I, I didn’t wanna be the lead person and I sort of found out why after writing the the instrumentation grants, there’re a lot of work. And I sort of realized that I was right to not want to do that, but yet in the end, it’s something that is really important. And it, it allows you to have the control that you, that you might want to have. Um so, you know, in many ways I avoided that situation for years and years. And kind of, you know kicked the can down the road. And then eventually it’s like, okay, I gotta start writing these grants myself. And I, I guess, you know, someone coming in might have to think about writing grants, not just for instruments, but for, for personnel. And I feel like my background, that’s not, so I don’t have a PhD. I’ve never written a Research grant before. So I feel that, you know, for me to write that type of grant, it, it’s not gonna go well. Okay. Sure. My, my first instrumentation grant didn’t go well either to be honest. So you know, I could probably learn and I probably do it, but I feel like someone coming in who’s already got a PhD. Who’s used to writing research statements who might, you know, I mean, basically this job is running a lab, right? So it’s similar to a faculty type position, but some of the beauty is I don’t have to write grants to, you know, have staff. So, and I’ve enjoyed that part of it and it’s been great. But someone coming in might consider that something that they might wanna do that will really help the facility because I’ve, you know, I’ve been running into problems, you know, asking for more staff and I, you know, it keeps not happening. So it’s like, okay, I need to take control. Right. So when I can take control, that’s different right now. I don’t feel like that’s something I wanna do. And, and it’s a lot of responsibility. So you write a grant and you fund someone for three years, then what, when the grant runs out, what’s your obligation, you know, what do you do with the, the staff? So I just you know, that’s a problem for the next person.

Peter O’Toole (00:12:30):
Do you recharge for the staff time and instrument time? So it’s building up a case, getting more recharged, cover that post, that grant period for that, that person.

Holly Aaron (00:12:40):
Yes. But the re the reality is recharge doesn’t cover all of, even my salary and my full-time staff salary. So you know, we are partially covered by institutional funds,

Peter O’Toole (00:12:58):
Which I think most are, the vast majority, certainly have a percentage, cause science is always gonna be unfunded work that comes in, you have to subsidize to an extent, and that that’s where that subsidy can be very useful. So what got you in interested in microscopy to start with

Holly Aaron (00:13:18):
What kinda interested in microscopy it was kind of an accident?

Peter O’Toole (00:13:23):
Okay. Well, a good accident.

Holly Aaron (00:13:28):
I mean, yeah, no, a great, like the best accident of my life. For sure. I graduated from college with a degree in biomedical engineering and at a time when that was not really an undergraduate degree and my degree was combination biomedical and electrical engineering. I wanted to be a biomedical engineer. There were no jobs. I could have gotten a job as an electrical engineer, designing circuits, but I didn’t wanna design circuits. So at the time I went with my boyfriend to graduate school, because that seemed like an okay thing to do. And entered a master’s program in biomedical engineering because surely that was gonna improve the job market. Right. Kick, kick the can down the road, basically. And after that, I couldn’t still couldn’t find a job. So eventually I somehow applied for a job in a neuroscience lab that was looking for microscopy support and computer support, two things that I really maybe was not, I didn’t really know a lot about. Um but I was, I was decent with computers, right. So I was like, okay, how, how hard can computer support do you, I can solve your printer problem. No problem. Right. and microscopy. I’ve looked through a microscope. How hard could that be? So I applied for this job and I didn’t get it and fine. I, I had applied for a lot of jobs that I didn’t also didn’t get. And so I started barista ing, at Starbucks. I asked what one my sons are doing at the moment. Oh yeah. Oh, I have to say of, I’ve had a lot of jobs and of my sort of, you know, minimum wage or minimum skilled jobs. That was one of my favorite jobs I would cons I would consider it again. Maybe it’s, it’s fun. Plus all the free coffee you could possibly want.

Peter O’Toole (00:15:56):
Are you still good at making a mean coffee.

Holly Aaron (00:15:59):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely., it’s a skill they teach you, so they teach you. Right. So anyway, the person that they did hire so this was actually, I didn’t know who she was at the time, but a rather famous neuroscientist, Carla Shatz and whoever they offered the job to didn’t work out. I don’t know if the person never came or just didn’t work out. And so three months later they gave me a call and said, Hey, you still interested in this job? And I said, yes, I am. And so I started and they like Starbucks trained me to do microscopy. So there were several postdocs in the lab who knew a lot of microscopy. I learned calcium imaging. I learned you know, widefield microscopy, video imaging we called it at the time doing time lapse. And we bought the, the first confocal microscope, I think, on the Berkeley campus because Carla had HHMI funding. So Howard Hughes Medical Institute funding. And so one of the postdocs in her lab Tillman Brotz he knew confocal and you know, he basically to taught me everything I know, and we demoed all these instruments and, you know, bought this beautiful microscope. And then all the HHMI labs around got the same one because they knew we did our homework and tried them all out. And that was a really, I mean, I, I think I was hooked somewhere, somewhere along that pathway of seeing these things.

Peter O’Toole (00:17:59):
So what year was that when you bought, bought that first microscope?

Holly Aaron (00:18:02):
That was 95. 96.

Peter O’Toole (00:18:07):
So what, what Confocal did you buy? Was it a Biorad?

Holly Aaron (00:18:11):
It was a Leica okay. TCS NT running I think windows NT, I think was what that NT was for. So that was, that was an old school, but it was amazing instrument. Yeah. when I came back to Berkeley, there was an old Biorad two photon Mr. C 600, I think. Ooh, gosh.

Peter O’Toole (00:18:37):
Old. Yes.

Holly Aaron (00:18:39):
Yeah. Oh yeah. But I, but it was very helpful for learning two photon because nothing was computer controlled. You had to go in with your hands and, and, and move the, all the little pinhole and all the little gears and slide in the filters. And so if anything, wasn’t working, you could trace the path. And I learned a lot by, by that

Peter O’Toole (00:19:05):
Now is that attenuating the laser power with filters?

Holly Aaron (00:19:08):
Yes. Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah. I’d forgotten about that, because exactly. That was, that was how you did it. Right. It was very, it is a different world now, now it’s so easy. You just type in, you know, I want 13% laser and you’re and you’re done. Right. And the computer, but back then, yeah. We, everything was filters, attenuation density, all the thing. So, yeah. So I learned a lot I, I owe a lot to Carla and the, the really amazing scientists in her lab to get,

Peter O’Toole (00:19:40):
You sent me a load of photos and I didn’t find one photo of a microscope, I don’t think, oh, really? You did send one of your images. I think the Zeiss annual calendar.

Holly Aaron (00:19:54):
Yeah. Yeah. We did a calendar contest for a few years. Back when, when print calendars were still a thing, I guess, you know, when you’d write on your calendar. But yeah. That was that was a fun time. I really, I didn’t send you any microscope pictures.

Peter O’Toole (00:20:16):
Oh, I’m, I’m just checking through. I’m fairly sure I’d have noticed if there was one there and I’m pretty sure I didn’t see one. Hmm, no, none there, can you believe it? All those photos and not one of a microscope. You, you did send me one though, of which I presume is your pet cat.

Holly Aaron (00:20:38):
One of my cats. Yeah. Yeah.

Peter O’Toole (00:20:41):
So how so, how many cats do you have then if that’s one of them

Holly Aaron (00:20:43):
Your, just two, just two for the record. I’m not a crazy cat lady yet. That’s also one of my future goals is to have more cats

Peter O’Toole (00:20:55):
On, on the Island of Hawaii.

Holly Aaron (00:20:57):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yes, yes. We have, you know, a few acres of land. So my husband always said it well, right now he says, no more cats than people. So that’s why we’re limited to two, but once we have more space, then he says one cat per acre.

Peter O’Toole (00:21:19):
Okay. I, I, I, I, I guess the cats are policing it for you to some, to some degree, well,

Holly Aaron (00:21:28):
Maybe they’ll keep the rat population down. Who’s to say

Peter O’Toole (00:21:36):
So you also sent another picture, which is the opposite contrast to what I presume. Hawaii’s like,

Holly Aaron (00:21:41):
Oh, that is that’s our pickup truck buried under about five feet of snow in Tahoe. So

Peter O’Toole (00:21:49):
Yeah. It’s huge. That amount of snow is monstrous. I just love the way the wing mirror isn’t touched, but the, the rest of the truck is just gone.

Holly Aaron (00:21:56):
Yeah. Yeah. It, there is a pickup truck under there it was very hard to actually that day we did not go snowboard because we couldn’t get out of the driveway and they hadn’t plowed the road. So,

Peter O’Toole (00:22:15):
Oh, sorry. I, I was a full picture. So this is your husband, you were talking about

Holly Aaron (00:22:19):
That’s my husband. Yep. And cooking well and drinking.

Peter O’Toole (00:22:24):
I say I’m looking for the food and there seems to be a lack of food, but there’s definitely a drink there. So what’s your favorite tipple then?

Holly Aaron (00:22:33):
Oh I mean that actually, I don’t know what I’m drinking there. That could be a gin martini of some nature. But we, you know, we, we like a gin tonic. I like any kind of fancy cocktails.

Peter O’Toole (00:22:53):
Okay. And this is one I was looking for though, which is you and snowboarding. So you do a lot of adventurous outdoor activities.

Holly Aaron (00:23:02):
Well, I, I love to be outdoors. So yeah, I love nature. I love being outdoors being so I, snowboard but I also wanna learn how to surf. I’m hoping maybe there’ll be some parallels there, but I’m not sure how much that’ll

Peter O’Toole (00:23:21):
Be true. I have to ask how close is your, the house you’re gonna build to the coast?

Holly Aaron (00:23:28):
It, so we’re up about 600 feet, I think at the, at the bottom 600 feet. But it’s a dirt road to get down to the ocean. It probably takes about 15 or 20 minutes. So not too far now that’s by plus The mountains.

Peter O’Toole (00:23:47):
Yeah. 15, 20 minutes by car. I presume.

Holly Aaron (00:23:50):
Yes. By car.

Peter O’Toole (00:23:51):
Otherwise that would be very steep to, to get there otherwise.

Holly Aaron (00:23:54):
Oh, yes, Yes, yes, yes.

Peter O’Toole (00:23:56):
Yeah. So talking about outdoor activities and some of your hobbies, if I can just find the correct picture for this. So the first one here is yourself. I’m not an expert in America, so where is this?

Holly Aaron (00:24:14):
Yeah, that is in Sedona. So that was a trip. We took a road trip. We took during the pandemic ended up actually we were planning to go through Bryce and Zion, but it was too cold. So we, we were renting a little travel trailer and the people we were renting it from, did not want us to get below freezing. So we headed south and, and ended up in Sedona and did some hiking there. It was, it was chilly there too, but not too cold. Yeah. The trailer. Yeah. That’s travel trailer yep. That’s in I think going through Yosemite,

Peter O’Toole (00:24:58):
Which look, looks very quirky and actually probably explains this tent, which looks like it is absolutely freezing. So this wasn’t the same place cuz this, this looks absolutely freezing.

Holly Aaron (00:25:10):
Yeah, no, that was a backpacking trip. That was my best friend’s 50th birthday. She wanted to go backpacking in Canyonland in Utah and it was actually, it was funny because when we left it, it was sunny and warm. And the night of her birthday, she woke up to snow and she was the happiest person in the world. She’s like, I can’t believe it snow for my birthday. And she was so happy. I had never camped in the snow and it was you know I’ve been on, I think less than five backtrack packing trips anyway. So I was pretty surprised at the snow, but the snow was actually warmer than than the night before cuz it had gotten cold.

Peter O’Toole (00:26:00):
Yeah. Cause the wind wind that comes with it and everything as well. Exactly.

Holly Aaron (00:26:04):
Yeah. Yeah.

Peter O’Toole (00:26:06):
This other picture. It is good if I just move out the way, because what on earth are you doing in? Where are you, what are you doing in this picture? I

Holly Aaron (00:26:15):
Think that, I think that’s also Sedona, me being silly. So um you know, it’s funny. I, I don’t have a lot of photos of myself. I’m usually the one snapping the pictures with my camera, but if there’s an opportunity to do a silly pose, I, I just, I can’t usually resist the urge

Peter O’Toole (00:26:36):
Which looks, which actually you are incredibly flexible as this picture shows

Holly Aaron (00:26:41):
That’s from yoga. Yoga is, is good for flexibility and occasionally drink.

Peter O’Toole (00:26:48):
So I’m gonna ask you, I presume yoga’s a very good way to relax at the end of a day or after a stressful time. When has been the most challenging time that you’ve found in your career?

Holly Aaron (00:27:02):
Ooh. In my career I mean there’s been ups and downs. There’s been a lot of challenging times, a lot of a lot of stressful times. Certainly you know people can get very emotional about their research, which is good, they’re invested. And one thing I will swear is always the case that the biology is very hard and it never, the biology is never going well and all this time, the microscope’s working fine. As soon as the biology is perfect, it’s a hundred percent guarantee that the microscope will not work. So, you know, for me, I I’m rather empathic. And so when people are upset, I, I feel this and, and they will, you know, they’re upset because they’ve worked really, really hard and suddenly the stupid microscope is broken and they’re angry. They’re angry at the microscope. They’re angry at me. They’re angry at, you know, everyone else and you know, maybe they have to get on a different microscope that they don’t know as well, but somebody else is overstay their time 20 minutes. And so, you know, there can just be, you know, emotions and feelings and frustrations and having to deal with that. You know, that’s when I’m like, okay we’re gonna get through this. No one’s gonna die. It’s just a microscope. They break, they will get fixed. We will make it better. So definitely those are times I feel,

Peter O’Toole (00:29:01):
I quite like the irony that this perfect sample that they have and your microscope’s broken and then you can get it on another microscope and then they probably realize actually it wasn’t the perfect sample to start with. It’s true. They dunno. It’s perfect. They always assume it’s gonna be perfect until they get it on. Have you had much have been shouted that much when things have gone wrong?

Holly Aaron (00:29:26):
Not really. No.

Peter O’Toole (00:29:28):
No. It’s just their own personal stress. They’re crossed. They’re angry at the situation. They’re not crossed with anyone in, in particular.

Holly Aaron (00:29:35):
No, it there’s probably been it. It’s usually people fighting about the time on a microscope. You know, I’m not, I’m not getting enough time, someone togging it, they signed up for four days this week, all day, you know? So, you know, I don’t know that I’ve been yelled at so much but, but you know, yelled in the vicinity of. Yeah.

Peter O’Toole (00:30:06):
So, so which is interesting, cuz actually what you’re also highlighting is you’re not just a microscopist, there’s also a lot of management skills and sort of HR type skills in working with a wide user base as well. So did you ever get any formal coaching or is that something you learned on the job?

Holly Aaron (00:30:28):
Such a good question. No formal training. I mean this is something like all faculty should have is like management training skills or anyone in a core facility, right. Management training skills. I, I mean literally the job is half technical and half people skills it’s easily and maybe even a little more than half people skills because I mean, people it’s dealing both with your staff, it’s dealing with vendors, it’s dealing with technicians, it’s dealing with building facility, people, faculty, students, all your users. You know, there’s definitely a lot of I wouldn’t call them soft skills, but people, people skills.

Peter O’Toole (00:31:19):
So it’s interesting thinking about that diversity of the role. And I know you’ve from many of you activities, especially in the, the teaching side of things as well. And the courses that you’ve run and contributed with. I think I have one of the pictures here, which is, I, I guess a group photo back in 2001.

Holly Aaron (00:31:41):
Yep. That would’ve been then I think the second time I attended that course as a student and then on the class. Yep. And that was my course that I ran in. I think that was 2003 was the first time we ran a course. So which I was kind of modeling after the Jim Polley course in Vancouver where, where, like I said, I went twice. Um and then they’ve invited me back to be on the faculty, which was nice. Because I was a slow learner, but once I learned it, then I was okay um but yeah, that was our first course. I think there was I don’t know, less than 30 people that was the advanced, what became the advanced imaging methods workshop, which will be virtual in 2022. But our last one was 20, I guess, 2020, we did it right before the shutdown. Um we had about 250 people in Berkeley, so it kind of ballooned into a, a fairly large event. And yeah, that’s another exactly people skills you have to, to work with venues, vendors we brought in food. I mean, that was kind of fun because we got to, you know, in some ways do what we wanted to do, make the event, what we wanted to event to make it, we could invite who we wanted to invite. And and really like, yeah, I, it, you know, I, I enjoy organizing that meeting and hopefully providing a service to people, you know we started it because we had instrumentation that we really weren’t getting enough use on and really know all the things that we could do with it. And so the, at the time Wolfgang Becker whose system we had was out visiting and he would come every year and kind of tweak up our system and get it running top notch. And, you know, I said to him, you know, we really don’t know enough about how to use this lifetime technology. And, you know, we, you know, we we’re, we’re doing pretty good with confocal, two photon, people. People kind of understand that, but we’re no, we’re not really getting this other dimension. And so he was like, would you consider having an event? And I was like, yeah, we wanted to have some sort of workshop. You know, I’m just not really sure how to do it. He’s like, I will give you $10,000 to organize one. And I said, that’s exactly how much money I need to do it not knowing anything. So, you know, that was, that was the start of it. And it’s just kind of grown since then. And we’ve added, you know, so many more facets to it. And this year, actually, I’m pretty excited if I can get a plugin, if I don’t know if this’ll show run before aim on January 18th or 20th, 2022. But if it does I’ll have to tell people to come because we’re really gonna focus on tutorials this year. And like more hands on and demos from both our sponsors and vendors, as well as from experts in the field. So software there’s gonna be software demos, so you can follow along and learn NAPARI and Fiji and oh, and there’s gonna be a great tie in to the Nature Methods focus on the quality of reproducibility that just came out in December. We’re having a whole session on that. So anyway, there’s gonna be like a lot we’re because we’re zoomed out and a virtual, nobody wants more zoom, more virtual meetings. And so we’re gonna have a little bit of that aim, high end, exciting science talks, but we’re also gonna intersperse it with a lot more for people beginning or people really wanting to like put the edge on their, you know, their science, make it good, make it reproducible publishable and all of those things. So that’s what we’re gonna do this last time. Good

Peter O’Toole (00:36:12):
Plug. When you retire, are you gonna come back and carry on teaching?

Holly Aaron (00:36:17):
You know, that is one thing I’ve thought about as maybe a sort of post-career stay in the game. I mean, I, I gotta say it’s hard to give up microscopy. I, I love it. I love the community. I love I love the technology. I love all the different types of science that it touches. It’s really opened my eyes to so many different things. I just, you know, I, I don’t wanna give that up. I just wanna take a break.

Peter O’Toole (00:36:53):
Could you set one up in Hawaii and can I help teach on it please?

Holly Aaron (00:36:57):
Yes. And yes. Okay. Writing this down, this is my next idea. Hawaiian microscopy conference. Yes.

Peter O’Toole (00:37:08):
You think you gotta have a proper you’re away from everything just,

Holly Aaron (00:37:13):
Yeah. That’s so that’s like an advantage of these, of these you know, again, person focus workshops where people are together and that that’s where a lot of collaborations happen and people meet each other and ideas spark and things happen and you know, it, it’s, that’s exciting to see. And yeah, if you could sequester where there’s hardly any internet, then we have to talk to each other.

Peter O’Toole (00:37:40):
So thinking of teaching the importance to teaching you sent me some pictures of you as a child. Yes. I’ve only got one or two of these, but this one probably you’re half missing, Space station.

Holly Aaron (00:37:58):
Space station. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Peter O’Toole (00:38:00):
So when you were young, what did you want to be?

Holly Aaron (00:38:05):
Well, let’s see at that age, maybe an astronaut. I was pretty young. Yeah.

Peter O’Toole (00:38:14):
So you wanted to be an astronaut. So, what in who, or what inspired you to go into science? I know, I know know astronaut science as, as in for the life sciences in my, yeah,

Holly Aaron (00:38:23):
Yeah, no. So the, the other photo you showed me with the butterfly net and my, my dad my, my father was actually a, a biology teacher science teacher for junior high. Before he gave that up to get a job that paid money to raise a family and I had really big butterfly collection, actually butterflies and insects. So I had a bunch of beetles and all sorts of weird bugs, and I pinned them all into a, into boxes and labeled them. And I was pretty like intently nerdy about it. And you know, we would go camping. So we lived in Michigan, in upper peninsula, and there’s not a going on there, but they there’s a great outdoors. So that was, you know, my inspiration for being outdoors. I love to be outdoors in nature and just looking at things there’s so much to see. And if you just look and so, you know, we would, you know, catch butterflies. And one time I had this idea that if I got enough fireflies in a jar, I could make a lantern out of it. Of course it didn’t quite work out that way.

Peter O’Toole (00:39:43):
Programs always show that

Holly Aaron (00:39:45):
I know it doesn’t work. They’re really not that bright. And they, and also they signal they’re, you know, it’s like they’re sex thing, right. They’re, they’re flying around or they’re on the ground flashing the ones flying around or vice versa. I dunno. But anyway, it’s like, wow, it’s just so there’s so many fascinating things. So I think from a very young age, I was destined to going into science. So

Peter O’Toole (00:40:12):
Who else has been maybe the biggest inspiration on your professional since then?

Holly Aaron (00:40:19):
Oh, biggest inspiration. Wow. that’s a good question. I mean, I would say there’s been a lot of people who’ve been inspirational to me through, through the years. I mean you know, Carla Shatz when I worked in her lab and you know, her post, I worked closely with Marla Feller. Who’s now a faculty at Berkeley as well. They were both very inspirational just in terms of how bright and thoughtful they were about, about things. That’s certainly the case in microscopy, I mean there’s a lot of people that I really look up to like Alison North has always been kind of one of my heroes, Claire Brown. It’s another one, there’s some younger people now, too that I don’t, you know, I don’t know if that’s fair to say I draw inspiration, but like Uri Manor down at Salk you know they’re just doing all these like really cool, amazing things. And it’s like, I don’t know. It’s like, wow, that’s so cool, it’s, it’s just such a great time to be in microscopy. So yeah, I, I draw inspiration

Peter O’Toole (00:41:45):
From out of all the microscopes you’ve had, which has been your favorite. Do you have a favorite?

Holly Aaron (00:41:50):
I do. I do. You’re not, not supposed have favorites with your children. But I really enjoy the light sheet because it’s like super fast confocal, you know, it’s just when it works well, it’s just, it’s beautiful. It’s seamless. I, I, that’s probably my favorite.

Peter O’Toole (00:42:19):
It’s not a bad choice. Uh so some quick fire questions you got any bad habits?

Holly Aaron (00:42:28):
Um Well, I don’t know. Earlier you asked me about my drinking. It’s definitely not a good habit. Okay.

Peter O’Toole (00:42:42):
How often, how often do you drink?

Holly Aaron (00:42:48):
Often, Often

Peter O’Toole (00:42:50):
Once a week. Twice a week. Five times a week?

Holly Aaron (00:42:53):
Yes. All of those

Peter O’Toole (00:42:58):
Okay. Okay. Caviat were your bad habits. We’ll come back to that.

Holly Aaron (00:43:04):
Other bad habits. Let’s see. I don’t know. That’s probably the worst habit.

Peter O’Toole (00:43:15):
You, we all share that with you. Okay. So it’s just not different. Yeah. Yeah. I bet. 50% of the listeners and viewers. I think it, yeah. We with you on that one. Yeah. Yeah. And then 50% of those are thinking is that bad habit.

Holly Aaron (00:43:35):
No, didn’t know. That was a bad habit. No, probably not a good habit.

Peter O’Toole (00:43:41):
Yeah. That’s a good idea to, to drink to that bad habit.

Holly Aaron (00:43:45):
Well, for me, it’s still morning, Peter. This is water

Peter O’Toole (00:43:50):
I promise it’s water. Okay. Okay. Beer, all wine,

Holly Aaron (00:43:57):

Peter O’Toole (00:43:58):
Beer or wine?

Holly Aaron (00:44:00):
Beer or wine. Oh Ooh, tough call. Yes.

Peter O’Toole (00:44:07):
Yes, please on both.

Holly Aaron (00:44:12):
If I had to pick, I, I I’m leaning wine these days, but it could go back the other

Peter O’Toole (00:44:18):
Red or white

Holly Aaron (00:44:20):
Red, ah,

Peter O’Toole (00:44:21):
Much better choice. Okay. With that one tea or coffee.

Holly Aaron (00:44:27):
Oh, coffee.

Peter O’Toole (00:44:29):
Ah, so you do drink soft stuff still. So I just, just checking

Holly Aaron (00:44:31):
Okay, well there’s, there’s the caffeine. There’s the up and there’s the down, right? There’s caffeine for up I’ll call for down.

Peter O’Toole (00:44:39):
That’s combination can work quite well. See espresso martinis.

Holly Aaron (00:44:44):
Right. I’ll try that. I’m writing this down conference in Hawaii and espresso martini’s

Peter O’Toole (00:44:50):
Tell me you’ve had an espresso martini.

Holly Aaron (00:44:53):
I don’t think so. No.

Peter O’Toole (00:44:55):
Oh, my giddy aunt, straight after this I’ll oh my, oh, you’ll love it. I promise.

Holly Aaron (00:45:01):

Peter O’Toole (00:45:02):
I’ll try it. Yeah. So that’d probably be my advice at the end of a night. Okay.

Holly Aaron (00:45:06):
My, that might confuse me cuz it’s like, am I going? Oh, up or down? Up or down?

Peter O’Toole (00:45:13):
Yeah. I, I use a decaf for the coffee bit part of it, but there you are along very swiftly. What’s what’s your favorite food?

Holly Aaron (00:45:25):
Favorite food. I love all foods.

Peter O’Toole (00:45:28):
So there’s no. So next week, what don’t you like? And you there’s nothing you don’t like.

Holly Aaron (00:45:34):
Mm. I mean, there’s things I’m not super big fan of go on, but well you know, it’s more, probably more tex, like weird texture stuff. But I, I, I like, I, I eat all the foods. They’re all delicious. I like Thai food. I like Indian food. I like pizza.

Peter O’Toole (00:46:05):
Pizza. What’s your toppings. What’s your favorite topping on a pizza.

Holly Aaron (00:46:08):
Ooh. You know, I’m kind of like a weird California girl, so I might like lean towards, you know, barbecue chicken or something with vegetables or avocado. I’m, I’m definitely but I also, I will not shun a pepperoni pizza again. I like all the foods,

Peter O’Toole (00:46:32):
All the foods. You very easily pleased aren’t you?

Holly Aaron (00:46:35):
Well, Yeah. Yeah.

Peter O’Toole (00:46:38):
Who cooks at home?

Holly Aaron (00:46:40):
My husband.

Peter O’Toole (00:46:42):
Okay. So, so you’re sent this picture. Are these bought?

Holly Aaron (00:46:45):
No, no. These, these are actually from a conference we had and they were so pretty. I just loved them.

Peter O’Toole (00:46:53):
Lemon Meringues or yeah,

Holly Aaron (00:46:54):
Little baby lemon, meringues, individual. Beautiful. Right.

Peter O’Toole (00:47:01):
Yeah. And would taste quite good as well. So your husband cooks, so does that mean you a dreadful cook or

Holly Aaron (00:47:07):
No? No, I’m I I’m the sous chef. I’m the sous chef. So I’m good at chopping and he’s more inspirational. I can follow a recipe, but you know, he cooks and I eat, so we have like a really great relationship.

Peter O’Toole (00:47:25):
And is that in real time that you eat as you’re going along sometimes?

Holly Aaron (00:47:29):
I mean, you, you need to taste

Peter O’Toole (00:47:34):
Fully agree. Book or TV.

Holly Aaron (00:47:39):
Oh book.

Peter O’Toole (00:47:41):
That’s good. Cause you’re gonna have no TV reception where you’re going Fact or Fiction

Holly Aaron (00:47:47):

Peter O’Toole (00:47:49):
Okay. What type of fiction do you like?

Holly Aaron (00:47:52):
Sci-Fi or weird, weird stuff. Sometimes some fantasy.

Peter O’Toole (00:48:00):
Okay. Star wars or star Trek if you’re into sci-fi.

Holly Aaron (00:48:05):
Ooh. Wow. Both. That’s a, that’s a, a tough call,

Peter O’Toole (00:48:10):

Holly Aaron (00:48:13):
Are you gonna make me pick? OK. Okay. If you can see behind me, I I’m gonna have, I’m gonna have to go star war wars,

Peter O’Toole (00:48:20):
Star Wars that CP30 in the back. Is that CP30?

Holly Aaron (00:48:22):
Yeah. Oh, and of the, ah, yes. Princess Lea pezz very important

Peter O’Toole (00:48:35):
That was, yes. So there was never a competition there. It was always star wars. Favorite movie?

Holly Aaron (00:48:46):
Well, I mean maybe star wars. I

Peter O’Toole (00:48:48):
It was such a daft question once I asked it.

Holly Aaron (00:48:53):
Yeah. Yeah.

Peter O’Toole (00:48:57):
I, I meant to have asked this all the time. What’s your favorite Christmas movie? Cause I think this can be quite revealing about a person’s character.

Holly Aaron (00:49:04):
Ooh. Favorite Christmas movie. Ooh. Maybe The Grinch.

Peter O’Toole (00:49:12):
Ooh. Okay. Different one. Haven’t had that one before. That’s cool. And what music do you like listening to?

Holly Aaron (00:49:21):
Oh I like all sorts of music, but I’m probably, you know, lean towards eighties,

Peter O’Toole (00:49:29):
Eighties pop type

Holly Aaron (00:49:31):
Music. Yeah. Eighties pop. Yeah. Yeah. Or maybe a little bit nineties, you know, what do they call, you know, the sort of angry woman music.

Peter O’Toole (00:49:43):
Okay. Avril Lavigne type stuff.

Holly Aaron (00:49:43):

Peter O’Toole (00:49:43):
Early Bird or Night Owl.

Holly Aaron (00:49:43):
Night Owl

Holly Aaron (00:49:57):
And if you could meet anyone, who would you meet?

Holly Aaron (00:50:03):
Anyone live or dead?

Peter O’Toole (00:50:05):
Yeah. Go make it live or dead

Holly Aaron (00:50:07):
Live or dead. We

Peter O’Toole (00:50:08):
Have one of each,

Holly Aaron (00:50:10):
Oh, I could have a live person and a dead person.

Peter O’Toole (00:50:12):
Yeah. Why not? At the same time? Go for it.

Holly Aaron (00:50:15):
Ooh. Barack Obama and Maria Goeppert Mayer.

Peter O’Toole (00:50:23):
I’m glad you said so. Cause I thought if you choose two live people, I’m gonna ask who died. I didn’t know about, oh, So who was the second person? Excuse my ignorance.

Holly Aaron (00:50:37):
Oh, Maria Goeppert Mayer she’s the woman who in her PhD thesis predicted two photon excitation. Wow. And the Goeppert Mayers is named after her. And she’s, I think one of the first women or one of the few women physicists who’s won a Nobel prize.

Peter O’Toole (00:51:05):
So yes. Well now I am enlightened. It’s not just on two photo work. So you also sent me some other pictures. So I’m just feet, whale bones.

Holly Aaron (00:51:17):
Yes. Whale bones. Yeah. Yeah. That was in [Inaudible] at, so the furthest actually that’s right at the furthest Northern point in the United States. So in Hawaii on that big island we’ve been to the furthest Southern place in the United States, but this was a trip to, to go the opposite direction to Alaska and oh my God. Okay. This, this, this small town it for normally named Barrows, but they, they renamed it to Okia for the, the native people there, it, there there’s no roads. You have to fly in. You can’t drive there. And to walk out to where we were, it’s a big sandbar to get to this furthest Northern point. And we’re walking out there and it’s a beautiful day and people are driving in like little SUVs or some, some of them in pickup trucks even are driving on these sand bars and they all stop. And they see us walking out here and they all ask us, do you have a gun? And of course we’d flown in and you can’t really fly with firearms. And anyway, we didn’t have a gun. And so we’re like, no, no. And they’re like, oh, well, you know, there are polar bears. So we’re walking and starting to get a little bit freaked out out. The more people that we pass by who are like, you don’t have a shotgun. Well, do you have a handgun? Do you have a gun of any nature? So we’re pretty freaked out. Finally we get out to the end and there’s a couple and they’re pulling their kids in a little trailer and they tell us to come and, and get hot dogs with them. And they sure enough, they set up a little fire and they’re roasting hot dogs. So we sit down with them and we have hot dogs and you know, they’re like, oh no, you know, we, they had driven all the way out and around and realized that there were no no polar bears there, you know, but that they can come out of the water is what they tell us. And that they’d seen one earlier that week. And so anyway, they were like, it’s a, you know, you’ll probably be okay, there’s none right now. But you know next time you come, you should get a gun.

Peter O’Toole (00:53:48):
Good to know that, that’s Nuts.

Holly Aaron (00:53:52):
It’s not, I was really because the other thing they said is you can’t see them in the water because they, they only, their little nostrils stick up. And so they can come out of the water and they’ll be really, really hungry when, and they come out of the water.

Peter O’Toole (00:54:10):
Well, probably what happened to the whale. Isn’t it? There’s no water. Isn’t mine there. Well, no, the,

Holly Aaron (00:54:14):
That whale might have been washed ashore, but they, they also, they bring all sorts of whale, bones and stuff out onto this point to draw the polar bears away from the out, because otherwise they’ll go through the town and go through the dumpsters and go after people.

Peter O’Toole (00:54:30):
And you sent me a picture of this lava flowing into the sea.

Holly Aaron (00:54:33):
Yes. So that was on the big island. That was a really fun boat tour that we took with my parents when they were visiting. And yeah, like newly formed land was, was a pretty exciting time. Yeah. That was a fun trip. They the boat got so ridiculously close. They put in a bucket of water into the, into the ocean and pulled it out and you stuck your hand in the bucket. And it was like spa water. It was so warm. And it was like, Ooh, doesn’t another time, a little bit scary. Like, should we be this close to the lava? It’s unpredictable. It’s

Peter O’Toole (00:55:14):
So you’re camping in freezing conditions. Yep. You are doing funny maneuvers on the edge of cliffs. You are go, go to where polar bears will come out and eat you alive. And you are not at all risk averse. No,

Peter O’Toole (00:55:29):
No, I’m really, I’m really risk averse. I’m like really? Yeah. Safety is very important.

Peter O’Toole (00:55:37):
Do you just find, do you just find yourself in these places that naivety, then it just sounds nuts to me

Holly Aaron (00:55:44):
Well, no, it’s fun. It’s exciting. It’s it’s be there’s, there’s nothing like, you know, lava flowing into the ocean. There’s nothing like that.

Peter O’Toole (00:55:55):
So you also sent this photo, which, which is not a microscope image.

Holly Aaron (00:55:59):
No, it’s

Peter O’Toole (00:56:00):
Not, but, but it makes me look like I got a fantastic fun green hair do if I sit in the middle of this, this

Holly Aaron (00:56:06):
You go. Yeah, that looks cool.

Peter O’Toole (00:56:08):
It’s a, it’s a beautiful photograph though.

Holly Aaron (00:56:12):
Yeah. It’s just a plant that was from, from the backpacking trip in Utah. Yeah.

Peter O’Toole (00:56:23):
And, and back back to the microscopy side, you sent me one of the most horrific.

Holly Aaron (00:56:31):
Oh, see, I did send a microscope picture.

Peter O’Toole (00:56:33):
You did well. It’s it’s it’s so this is the inside. It’s the filter inside of MI. So, oh my God. What happened? Isn’t

Holly Aaron (00:56:40):
Isn’t that horrifying?

Peter O’Toole (00:56:44):
Yes. That’s horrifying

Holly Aaron (00:56:47):
Yeah. That’s the condenser from one of my microscopes. For some reason it wasn’t, it wasn’t turning and we took it apart and that’s what it looked like inside. A lot of salty water had leaked in and just pretty much destroyed it. But it got cleaned up and it, and it worked again, so,

Peter O’Toole (00:57:13):
Oh, thinking of salty water. Yeah. And you love your multi photons. Yes. We had someone doing time lapses on our multi photon, peristaltic pump that wasn’t pumping the media, it culture media, wasn’t pumping it into the dish, but was pumping it onto the microscope, invert multi photon. And it went down lenses below the lenses, the works. And then they never told us about it

Holly Aaron (00:57:46):
That is the thing that drives me crazy. Just tell me, this is what I tell all my users. Just if you’ve done something terribly stupid or wrong, please come and just tell me Bri, tell me sooner, because you know what? You can clean that up a lot easier. Cause you just leave it. It’s gonna rust. It’s gonna, oh, rust

Peter O’Toole (00:58:09):
Again, rust sticky. And then when the, when the condensed doesn’t do it, the filter tur, it didn’t move. Why is it not moving? Why is it not moving? And we’ve had, fortunately Zeiss were really great. And then they sent an engineer down and they took it apart and goes, oh my goodness, what’s happen. And here I, oh, we have no idea. And then we heard rumors of who done this. Mm. So we went and found the culprit and we, one thing we didn’t do was shout at them. We actually said, look, this has happened. It’s fixed. We’re getting it fixed just next time. Just tell us, it’ll be a lot easier to fix. And we wanted to make a point to not being crossed with them, really to share that. Actually, it’s not about that. It’s just about tell us, you know, we are not cross now that you didn’t tell us, just tell us and make sure everyone knows. And we’ve used that story. And that person has never lived that down. Cause they went off, they came back and yeah, they they’re still the person who perfused the microscope.

Holly Aaron (00:59:08):
Yeah. Yeah. No, it’s, it’s, it’s a, it’s a good, it’s a good lesson. And I, I will, you know, there was one time someone, they did the right thing. They came to me and told me what they had done and what they had done was they, they had a, a metal dish heater warmer and they’d moved the objective. It was upright to the side. So they could, you know, relocate their little tissue in the middle and then they hadn’t moved it back into position when they to focus. And so the objective hit the side of the dish and, and felt resistance when they’re focusing, but kept focusing until he heard a crack. And then it dawned on him to look, instead of looking through the, the IP example to look down at what he had, he had done. And I, I really had to hold it together because I didn’t yell at him. I, but I did. I said, thank you very much for letting me know now I, I really need you to leave now. I was just like, okay, hold it together. He did the right thing. He told me, he told me right away, we’ll get it fixed. It was just the front lens that was cracked. We, you know, sent it in for repair, but

Peter O’Toole (01:00:40):
Oh, so it wasn’t that cracked. It was the lens that cracked.

Holly Aaron (01:00:43):
It was the, the lens, the front lens cracked. Oh, my ceramic tipped objective. Yes. So it, it kind of, it, I mean, he really had to crank on it.

Peter O’Toole (01:00:56):
Yeah. I might give. And that, and that is worth what, $6,00, $8 dollars

Holly Aaron (01:01:00):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean the repair it for a lot less than original cost, I think it was like 2, 2200 to repair it. So it, it was at, it was a cost. And then, you know, then we were without that objective for a while, which was, you know, really the worst part, both for him and for any of the other users who needed that objective. So, you know, I, I, anyway but no, I, I, I’ve never yelled at anyone. I I’ve made a lot of mistakes myself, you know? I mean, I’ll be the first to admit, yes, I have left the lamp on overnight. You know, sometimes we forget, we try to make it easy for you to remember, but, you know, just, you know, I, yeah, I, I don’t, there’s no point in yelling that doesn’t help

Peter O’Toole (01:01:46):
We are coming up to the hour already, which is nuts. And you sent me this who says, look for truth. There really quirky. Where’d you see the future of microscopy going?

Holly Aaron (01:02:01):
Ooh. Well that’s a good question. I mean future’s very bright, I think for microscopy, right? So pun pun. No, I was already there pun semi intended,

Peter O’Toole (01:02:16):
But it’s the same Waveland Holly on the same wavelength we’re on the Same wavelength.

Holly Aaron (01:02:19):
Yeah. I mean, with everything coming you know, bigger, faster, more you know, right now our biggest hurdles are really on the data handling and analysis side, right. Because this, the amount of data we’re already getting with, you know, light sheet, lattice, light sheet, single molecule you know, I think there’s gonna be more, more convergence between technology. So from electron to light microscopy from I to light and, you know, across these ranges, I think there’s gonna be more that’s, that’s what I think probably

Peter O’Toole (01:03:07):
More correlative and more correlative and that to the analysis as well.

Holly Aaron (01:03:13):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the, we really need more help on the, on the data of handling side, in my opinion.

Peter O’Toole (01:03:21):
And, and you’re right. And I think that’s a really good message actually to end on is if you’re considering a career into microscopy, there’s a lot of opportunity. Absolutely mind. It it’s a massively growing market still, you know, I, I, every now and now I’ve thought it’s plateauing and it takes off again and with the analysis and that correlation to other technologies, the other Omix as well. Yep. There’s a lot visual. Yeah. There’s a lot in this area still. So it’s, it’s a great, be a great career to be starting out in. So you are, you are retiring from it, but actually for anyone coming in it is the perfect time to be coming in because there’s so much opening up. Absolutely. I would say harder because a diversity is increasing so much compared to what we had.

Holly Aaron (01:04:10):
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. No, there’s. So there’s so much, there’s so much out there. You’re absolutely right. I love, I love the thought of like, yeah, where it’s gonna go, where it’s it’s great. Great time to come into oscopy and there’s lots of jobs and not just in academia, also in biotech, it’s big everywhere. Yeah.

Peter O’Toole (01:04:30):
So Holly, on that note, thank you very much for joining me today and everyone who’s watched or listened, please remember to subscribe to whichever your favorite channel is. And thank I hope you’ve enjoyed today’s episode and Holly enjoy your retirement. Thanks.

Holly Aaron (01:04:45):
I will.

Holly Aaron (01:04:45):
It’ll be, it’ll be a duller place without you lighting it up.

Holly Aaron (01:04:49):
Thanks Pete.

Speaker 1 (01:04:51):
Thank you for listening to The Microscopists, a Bitesizebio podcast sponsored by Zeiss microscopy to view all audio and video recordings from this series, please visit


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