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Episode 7 — How To Discover And Wield Your Charisma Factors Part 1

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About this episode

This is the first installment of our three part series on charisma factors. Why would a scientist care about charisma? Because none of us can do what we do without the help, leadership and support of others. Charisma is the way you move others to stand with you in your work. Find out why charisma isn’t just for salespeople and politicians, it is critically necessary for you and your career.

Hosted by Dr. Nick Oswald featuring Kenneth Vogt of Vera Claritas.

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Intro/Outro (00:04):
This is the Happy Scientist podcast. Each episode is designed to make you more focused, more productive, and more satisfied in the lab. You can find us online at Bitesizebio.com/happy scientist. Your hosts are Kenneth Vogt, founder of the executive coaching firm, Vera Claritas and Dr. Nick Oswald, PhD bioscientist and founder of Bitesize Bio.

Nick Oswald (00:35):
Hello and welcome to The Happy Scientist podcast from Bitesize Bio. If you want to become a happier, healthier, and more productive scientist, you’re in the right place. I’m Nick Oswald, the founder of Bitesizebio.com. We provide bioscience researchers with help for improving their technical skills, their soft skills and their wellbeing. And in this podcast, we will be focusing on the latter of these three areas with me, the driving force of this podcast, it’s Kenneth Vogt. I have worked with Ken now for over seven years with him as my business mentor and colleague and I knew that his expertise could help a lot of researchers. And so we decided to start this podcast. In these sessions, we will hear mostly from Ken on principles that will help shape you for a happier and more successful career. And along the way, I’ll pitch in with points from my personal experience as a scientist, and from working with Ken.

Nick Oswald (01:27):
So over to the man himself, Kenneth, how are things with you today?

Kenneth Vogt (01:30):
Doing great. So today we’re going to dig in to the final three part series, the third three part series. This one is called how to discover and wield your charisma factors. Now you may be looking at this and saying, you know, I was kinda on board with the idea of human needs and mindsets. Yes. I could see how that’d be useful, but charisma in science, in the lab, really isn’t charisma just for, you know, politicians and, and, and movie stars and, and rockstars. What does charisma have to do with me? Well, we’re gonna, we’re going to talk about that. We’re going to make the case for it for you. And then we’re going to show you how to implement and how it’s going to really help you in your work, in your career, in the lab itself, but in, in the broader business of what you do too.

Kenneth Vogt (02:26):
So let’s start off by a definition. You know, what is charisma? Because it may seem like an almost indefinable term. It’s some magical thing that some people seem to have and other people seem to not have, and it doesn’t seem possible to learn it. Well, first, let’s start with the dictionary. The dictionary defines charisma as compelling attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion in others. Wow. Now that sounds like something that would be really important, if you were running for office or if you were trying to make it, you know, big on the music scene or in some other endeavors, but why here do I need to be attractive? Do I need to be charming? Do I need to be inspiring? Do I need devotion from other people? It’s like, well, okay, you don’t need any of that. That’s true. You don’t need any of it.

Kenneth Vogt (03:22):
However, if you have any of it, if you have more than one piece of that, if you have all of that, it can do amazing things for you. It it’ll help you to accomplish your objectives. You know, you have a mission in your career and it might be you, you know, you have a mission right now. You know, you’ve got a task in front of you that you’re working on in the lab and it’s truly important. Well, there’s nothing that can be done in science today that can be done alone. You are not an Island. You cannot be an Island. There might’ve been a time 200 years ago when somebody could just be a scientist just by themselves. But any more, the interconnectedness of what’s necessary is gigantic. I mean, just start with something as simple as your education, if you had had to start from scratch and invent chemistry and invent biology, and how could you have ever got to where you are today?

Kenneth Vogt (04:25):
And you’re standing on the shoulders of giants, because without that, none of this would be possible. The advancement of science has happened because people work together. And if you want people to work with you and help you and you need them to do so, you’re going to need some charisma because charisma is going to give them the incentive to join in and help you. Now, you may think that, well, there are other incentives out there, you know, it could be something as simple as, you know, they two are getting a paycheck, but that doesn’t mean they will help you on what you’re doing. It means they’ll just still do their job next to you. But to help you, you’re going to need something about you that can compel other people to join you in this. So just like we talked about human needs, just like we talked about mindsets, I’ve got a set of six charisma factors in mind, they’ll cover 95% of the cases. Again, this is a, it’s a framework. It’s, it’s not, it’s not reality, but it’s a method that works. And isn’t

Nick Oswald (05:35):
Before we carry on in going into these factors, I think you know, in, in respect to defining whether whether a charisma is a thing that’s worth in, you know, inquiring within yourself within yourself about whether it’s a thing that you should have, look at the other. If you look at it the other way around, if you have a boss that you have been devoted to, for example, then how much better was your work compared with an to a boss that you were not devoted to, that you, that you, that you kinda resented working for? It’s like night and day in terms of output and in terms of enjoyment for the boss and the, and the employee or the, you know, the, the group member. And as you said, the dictionary definition, there is compelling attractiveness of our attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion in others.

Nick Oswald (06:28):
And so it’s quite easy to take that as a kind of, you know, really a huge thing. But actually, if you look at what devotion means, it just means, well, I mean, the definition is a feeling of strong love or loyalty. And so it’s just, charisma is something that just inspires loyalty in other people, that’s one way to look at it. And of course you would want that because you want people, you know, as you go up the ladder, you want people to be, to be, want to work with you because, because they feel something other than just a transactional willingness to work with you, you know, that’s something above that because you will have experienced that yourself. That that is a much, you know, if you, if you you’re loyal to someone, you feel that loyalty, then it will be a much better we’ll get much better results,

Kenneth Vogt (07:18):
Right? I think you bring up a really good point, too, that even if you, as an individual, don’t feel like you are particularly charismatic, you likely been moved by somebody, yourself, you felt their charisma. And sometimes they’re, they’re not the people you might think, you know, there might be that, that amazing professor that, that has been, you know, a change agent in the world, and you’ve really looked up to them and, you know, you found them charismatic, but you know what? Grandma might be charismatic. Why are you so devoted to grandma? It’s a charisma. And you think it’s not just because she makes good cookies. You know, there’s something about her that makes you want to do for her. That makes you want to please her, that makes you want to, you know, to do what she asks. And the same thing is true for you. You can do that. You can do the same thing. You can be a grandma.

Nick Oswald (08:13):
Yeah. I think, I think what you’re about to touch on as well in this, in this episode is that there is a commonly held definition of charisma, and that is not the full scope of what charisma is and, or the possible ways to be charismatic.

Kenneth Vogt (08:30):
And that’s, that’s it.

Kenneth Vogt (08:35):
Yeah. You may have a notion in mind for what charisma is, but here’s the problem. Charisma is just a raw power. It has to be, you have to apply ethics to it because here’s the thing. There are charismatic people out there that are downright evil. And what do they use charisma for? They use it for manipulation.

Nick Oswald (08:56):
Yeah. And, and that’s what I, I mean, my own before we talked about this, initially my own understanding of charisma was that it was something, you know, to use the to use the core mindsets we talked about previously, it’s a very orange thing perhaps, or maybe even, red. And it’s someone who is charming to get something out of you. And and I think that’s a commonly held perception of what charisma is that it’s, it’s a bit edgy. It’s a bit kind of double edged sword and it’s, and it’s it’s about manipulative charm. But again, I think what we’ll be looking at here is it’s not that there’s, it’s possible to be yourself and be charismatic more than possible and, and get the results that charisma brings.

Kenneth Vogt (09:46):
So to be fair, you can’t say, it’s not that it can be that it’s just, it doesn’t have to be that it doesn’t, it’s not automatically evil. Let’s put it that way. Generally speaking, what it’s automatically is neutral, and that is it’s somebody who’s persuasive, you know, that could be good or bad, but being persuasive is certainly useful. So even if you were only neutral about it, having some charisma that would allow you to persuade people to your way of thinking or to support the things that you’re doing or to, or to, you know, grease the wheels for, for what you’re doing, that’s, that’s not, that’s, that’s a useful thing, but you can take it to the even higher level. And if you apply some really positive ethics to it and really make it good, well, now you’re being an inspiration and that that’s a word that came from that original definition that I covered earlier, but to be inspiring to other people that that is, that is a really high aspiration.

Kenneth Vogt (10:55):
And it’s, it’s really something powerful. So at first blush when me look at it and say, well, that’s, that’s kinda out of my pay grade. I don’t, I don’t know if I can, I can be inspiring, but don’t cut. Don’t cut yourself off from possibility. There, you, you may be surprised how inspiring you can be. Part of the problem that you’re probably having is your notion of what charisma is only fits into certain categories. And you may feel like those categories, aren’t a good fit for you. And that might well be true, but there are other categories that, that you may not normally think of as being about charisma. And those are the things that we’ll cover in the rest of the series for our session today, though. I just want to talk to you about charisma and talk to you about how it can be surprising that it’s useful to you. And we’re going to use an example here, and we’re going to put Nick on the spot.

Nick Oswald (11:53):
Yep.

Kenneth Vogt (11:55):
You know, he’s a PhD scientists. Like, you know, he’s been in the lab, been at the bench, did the whole thing, but he has an alter ego. He has something he does as an avocation. And it ties in very neatly to this little conversation about charisma. And that is Nick is the lead singer in a Bon Jovi tribute band. And, and if you’re going to believe the press for the band called Just Jovi, they are the premier Bon Jovi tribute band in Scotland. And I’ve heard them. They’re good. And you can imagine it’s not just that Nick plays a rockstar at night. He plays one of the great rock stars at night, Jon Bon Jovi. So Nick, in reference to charisma, how is it that a selfie facing nerdy scientist can get up on stage and play the rockstar?

Nick Oswald (12:54):
Yeah, that’s a good question. I don’t really know. No, I do. But I certainly not. I mean, I I’ve always been interested in music, so it’s something I’ve always wanted to do, but I, I always kind of stayed, you know, I was always a lead singer in bands, but it was kind of on my terms. And so on this thing came up a few years ago and I thought when I first saw it, I thought who’d be crazy enough to do that. That’s a really hard idea, a hard gig. It’s hard to play someone like that on stage. And, and in effect, it’s like playing in a play, being in a play, not playing in a band and because I’m, I’m acting. And, but I had no previous experience of that, but I just felt like I should go for it because because it looked like a growth opportunity.

Nick Oswald (13:40):
It looked like something really difficult, but actually something I felt that I could pull off. And yeah, if you look back to me as a, you know, kid, or even a young adult and stuff, there’s no way I’m not what you would call a classically charismatic. I’m not, I don’t have that twinkle in my eye type thing. I’m not that, that sort of person, but what I do have is an well, how would I put this? I think this is what you’ll be touching on later, Ken. But if you, the way to be charismatic is to be yourself or is to tap into what you’re really passionate about. And what I’m really passionate about is delivering for people is making something that way, you know, making something that, that that will really inspire people or people will really enjoy. And so the, so the, the way that works for me, the way that I’m pardon the dogs, the way that I’m able to do that. And to pull that off is that I’m not being myself. I’m being someone else. I’m being a part, playing a part that that these people are really loyal fans of the people who come to watch us. And if I can pour myself into that and be that person, then, then it works for them. So that works for me.

Kenneth Vogt (14:57):
So Nick, you you’ve uncovered a few things here and I want to put some labels on them so people can see what it is that you brought to the table that allowed you to do this because at first blush, yeah, you’re, you’re using an artifice as it were in saying that, Oh, I’m just play acting at this. And that was, that was how you, that’s how you gave yourself permission to act charismatically. And anybody can do that in any situation. You can look at this and say, okay, I’m going to channel somebody else that I know that’s really, really persuasive. And it’s really inspiring. You can do that, but here are the factors you have to bring to do that. The three things, presence, power, and warmth. So we talk about the idea of being present. What does that mean? It means you get right here right now that, that it seems like presence can be such a complicated thing, but it’s just not, we were always off in our own little worlds and we’re always daydreaming about this and the other thing, and we’re always thinking about what comes next.

Kenneth Vogt (16:12):
We’re always, always having anxiety about what you, what happened before. If you can just be right here right now, this is the moment I’ve got. This is the only moment I can control the past already happened. There’s nothing to be done about that. The future hasn’t happened yet. So there’s nothing I can do about that yet. But now is the moment I’ve got when I can do something. And so if you’re here and now people notice that, and they’re looking for that, we all, we all would like to see some stability out there. And, and when you see somebody who is, who’s firmly grounded, we’re drawn to that. And that’s, that’s part of the thing about charisma, charisma. Isn’t about controlling other people. It’s about drawing them. It’s about bringing them in to this space that looks like it’s a good space to be in.

Kenneth Vogt (17:06):
You know, maybe it’s good and that it’s safe. Maybe it’s good. And then it feels that it feels like something’s gonna happen here. So that’s the, that’s the first thing you have to do is you got to get yourself present. Now, part of that, part of what gets in your way there sometimes is that you’re not physically comfortable and it can be, it can be the silliest things, you know, are your clothes comfortable? Are you shoes comfortable is your chair comfortable? You know, the equipment you’re using is it, is it broke down and not adequate to your needs. Have you not gathered together? The things that you need to do, what you need to do right now, get your physical space in order, get anything that’s impacting you, your physical self in order so that you don’t have this distracting, additional stress out there.

Nick Oswald (18:02):
So you’re talking here about how people can be more present in themselves by just removing anything that’s taking their focus away. Is that

Kenneth Vogt (18:12):
Exactly? And, and sometimes we look at this and say, Hey, you know, I just don’t care. I’m not know I’m not a slave to fashion. I’m just not going to, I’m just not going to waste any time on that. It’s not important to me. Is that true? Or are you telling yourself a story that it’s not important to you? Would you in fact, feel more comfortable if you were wearing clothes that fit better or a little more stylish or a little more comfortable? Is it maybe worth spending an extra $20 on that pair of shoes to get shoes that actually feel good on your feet? Is it actually worth spending another $50 on that jacket? Cause it, it just looks better on you. I’m not talking about moving towards vanity, but I am talking about, we gotta stop. We gotta stop doing things to yourself.

Kenneth Vogt (19:09):
That me, we were making ourselves uncomfortable because when you’re uncomfortable, you’re going to radiate that to other people. But when you’re comfortable, you’ll also radiate that to other people and people like to be comfortable. And so you will, you will have a certain magnetic quality to you when you’re more comfortable in your own skin. Now, obviously you can only go so far with this. Now I’ve seen videos of Nick’s band and yes, he does dress like he’s there for a rock show, but he doesn’t dress like he’s in a, in a, you know, in in a hair band, you know, he’s not pushing it so far that it’s unnatural for him, but I have seen him up there in a Superman t-shirt. And I think that’s great.

Nick Oswald (19:51):
I it’s worth, actually in that note, it’s probably worth noting that what I’ve done over, cause I’ve been doing this for three years or so now and what I’ve used it as, as an exercise to get more comfortable, keep pushing the boundary of what’s comfortable. And so so that I can stay focused. I’m not feeling so uncomfortable that I can’t, that I can’t focus on the show. And so where I was three years ago, I’d say the first show we did, I I’m, I I’m prepared to go much further now and still feel comfortable and still feel focused than it was in the beginning. It’s just that exercise of, of lifting that further and further. But also I would say I’m far from feeling 100% comfortable on stage. I just kind of probably am better. I’m just less uncomfortable if you like.

Kenneth Vogt (20:42):
Right. Well, that net, that really makes a good point there that, you know, you don’t have to be perfect at this, you don’t have to be world-class at it. You just, you just gotta be a little better than you’ve been. Just take it up a notch and go to the next level. And you’ll find that after you go to the next level, well, then that’ll feel normal and comfortable and you’ll be willing to go to the next level and you’ll be willing to go to the next level. It’ll keep progressing for you. And, and there, there was a point in, you know, I’ve been, I’ve known Nick through this whole process with this particular band. And I know what he was like when he first said, I’m thinking of joining a band, am I crazy? No. And to, okay, we’re doing it, man. We suck. You know, and then it was like, we got show I’m terrified And it just kept going along. And now

Kenneth Vogt (21:35):
None of those things, those things of the past seem ridiculous. They seem silly, but it was because he bothered to keep working on the charisma of his presence there in a band. And the same thing can be applied in anything you’re doing. I promise you that what you need to do in the lab is small compared to what you need to do to get on stage and rock the house. So it’s,

Kenneth Vogt (22:03):
It’s definitely with, within your grasp, it’s something you can do. So another thing about presence is we’re constantly being distracted by stuff and devices, especially our phones and our tablets that are always ringing and going off and buzzing and, and, and vibrating and all these things going on. Well, if you’re in a situation where you need others to come along with you, you need their help and assistance and you need to inspire them, turn the devices off, turn the services off, do whatever you gotta do at the beginning of, of this particular podcast. When Nick and I were talking before we started, you said, Oh, give me a minute. I need to tell someone I’m turning off Skype. That’s exactly what he should do right now. He’s here to make an impression on you and, and he doesn’t want to be distracted. So, you know, that’s, that’s the kind of thing you gotta be aware of.

Kenneth Vogt (23:07):
And the excuse that we often use on this stuff is like, well, I can’t be unavailable like, Oh yes, you can, you can be unavailable for this five minute conversation. This half hour presentation, this two hour meeting, you can, the world is not going to end because you so important you were unavailable for two hours. It’s you can do this again.

Nick Oswald (23:33):
I think it’s a good point as well, to make the it’s not just about being, there’s more ways to be unavailable than just you know, then just being buried in your device. Because I know that during my PhD, for example, the currency, and I think I’ve mentioned this before, but the, the kind of the way you showed in the place that I worked for my PhD was that you cared and that you were, you were really diligent and you, you were committed. Was that you worried all the time, right? Or at least that’s how I interpret it so that I was going home on a Friday afternoon or Friday evening. And and I would still be worrying about, you know, whether this experiment was going to work, are things going well, I’m a good enough, all that stuff. And then one Friday, I actually went to a yoga class with my my, now, my wife. And she was, you know, she wants to take me along. So I went along and the woman said, okay, now relax. And just forget everything.

Nick Oswald (24:32):
And my brain said, hang on, you can’t forget everything. You’ve got all this stuff to worry about. And then I just realized what I was doing. And, and for that moment, I had this little moment of insight of hang on. I can just, I can just let that go. You know, it’s not my job to hold onto this all of the time. And, but, but by holding onto all the time, I was less available. And I’m not saying I’ve cracked that. I still do that to an extent, now, but I, you know, it’s one of those things, you just keep working at it to get more, to become more and more available.

Kenneth Vogt (25:03):
Right? Sure. And the problem is we built up all these stories that we tell ourselves, the story that it’s, that worrying evidences how much I care. Well, deconstruct that, is that actually the truth? Or is that just something that I found convenient to believe?

Nick Oswald (25:25):
Yeah. Or as worrying, what’s keeping me motivated. It’s keeping me from moving and stopping the wheels from falling off is another one, I think.

Kenneth Vogt (25:33):
Right? Yeah. And considering, considering the world without worry, if I didn’t worry, what would the world look like? What would happen then? You’ve oftentimes it’s because you’ve never considered that at all. I can’t consider that or no, it doesn’t hurt to consider it. Maybe you think you can’t do it, but first let’s consider it. And you may find in your consideration that things are not the way you were presuming they were. So, so we’ve talked about a number of different ways that your presence can be impacted and all let’s talk about power, power. Again, you gotta, you gotta put, apply some ethics to this thing. You know, power can be used very manipulatively, but it also can be very inspirational. So think about some simple, powerful things that you could do that would be inspiring to other people. Well, I’ll give you an a simple example.

Kenneth Vogt (26:32):
Look, somebody in the eye when you’re talking to them now, I don’t mean give him a death stare, but we all know the difference of am I looking them in the eye or am I eye contact? And we know it’s uncomfortable for us when somebody is avoiding eye contact with us and they feel weak to us, they feel very, when somebody is avoiding eye contact with us, we, we, we feel their weakness and we might even be empathetic about it, but it’s it, it’s not inspiring at all. Whereas somebody that will look you in the eye, not in an aggressive way, but in it, but in an in a way where they, where you feel attached to them, you feel connected. All right. That is very powerful. Now, all of a sudden they’re giving you their full attention. Now they’re going to hear everything you say. Now they’re going to pay attention to the things you asked them to pay attention to. So, you know, bring that part of the power to it. Let’s decide. Go ahead.

Nick Oswald (27:32):
I was going to say, to go, go back to the band that how does that work in my band scenario is, again, all I’ve done here is I’ve put in some very simple things to appear powerful. And and that, that is enough. And, you know, it was very simple things like paying attention to the way that I stand on the stage and the way that if anyone makes eye contact with me, I will make eye contact with them. Not that I’m 100% confident about that, but that’s what I chose to do. If anyone takes a photograph, I always look at the camera. If anyone’s videoing, I will sing right to the camera. And it makes people feel like you’re connecting with them. Even though inside, it doesn’t feel it doesn’t make people feel like you’re connecting them. It gives people something to connect to. Even the one side, you don’t 100% feel that if you know what I mean, but I just made the conscious choice to put these kinds of pillars in place that would make me look increasingly powerful and present regardless of how I felt,

Kenneth Vogt (28:34):
Right? And it points out too that you can do this for the crowd. You’re one on one. Obviously it seems obvious to look somebody in the eye, but what happens when it’s a crowd of people? What, if it’s a meeting room full of people well make eye contact individually with people. And no, you don’t have to make eye contact with every single person in the room, but you’re going to notice the moments there. There are some people that you’ve definitely captured their attention. Give them that gift. Look them in the eye. There are some other people in the room you need there. They’re buying, give them attention, make sure you look those folks in the eye, they’re going to people be people in the room who are skeptical to you. And again, this is a power thing. Look them in the eye and let them know that I am willing to stand for my position that you are skeptical about. So give me a chance to make my case. You know, it’s not a matter of challenging them so much is showing them a look. I am not afraid to address any, any detractors or any, you know, I’m not afraid to address any questions that people may have.

Nick Oswald (29:37):
Yeah. And if you look at, if you read about, I mean, it’s often good to go cross disciplinary when you’re trying to figure out how to do your job better. And if you look at what professional singers say about how they work a room, if you read some, then they’ll talk about focusing on one area of the room to, to, to focusing their energy on one area of the room to draw them in, and then focusing on the other area you know, the next area. And so then you can keep kind of like a, you know, it’s sounds a bit whimsical, but they’re drawing people towards them all the time by just putting focus on different areas or different individuals to just try and influence. Obviously it depends on the crowd to try and, you know, draw everyone in or draw, give everyone a chance to be drawn in. But it’s the same when you’re giving a presentation it’s or, you know, a lab meeting or or or a bigger, bigger auditorium presentation. The more you can, you know, you see people who, who kind of mechanically look right around the room, but the more you genuinely try to connect with the people that are in the audience, the better that feels for them. And the more likely they will have a a good perception of what you’ve just done, regardless of what you said.

Kenneth Vogt (30:51):
Exactly. And that, that we’ve all seen people do that they just kinda like, they like robotically just kind of scan the audience, whether that’s in an auditorium or in a, in a small meeting. And what, where it’s, what’s really noticeable about that is that they’re not making connection to anybody they’re avoiding focusing on anybody. That’s the, that’s what the scanning thing is all about. So don’t do that. And a lot of this stuff that we, that we’re going to talk about in this podcast, my answer to many problems that people don’t have, what do I do different? Well, it’s easy. Don’t do that. Stop doing that thing that doesn’t work and scanning the audience is one of those things. So now this is a, if you’re going to truly be charismatic, it’s going to have to be a two way street. So in addition to looking people in the eye so that they, so that they’ll pay attention to you, you have to pay attention to other people.

Kenneth Vogt (31:49):
You have to actually listen to other people. And you’ve got to give evidence that you’re listening. And often that evidence is something as simple as nodding that you’re acknowledging. I hear that you’re saying something, and it’s not about agreement with what they’re saying. Cause you may entirely disagree with what they’re saying, but what’s really important is that you’re hearing it and from the other person’s standpoint, especially if they know they’re seeing something that is opposite of what you’ve said, acknowledging that I have heard you lodge your disagreement, or maybe even your disapproval is really powerful. And yet again, it asks you your power position. So you might that if I’m going to be powerful, I’ve got to, I’ve got to, you know, pretend away all of the naysayers, like no, exactly the opposite. You have to embrace them. You have to draw them in that, that, yes, I am well aware of the weaknesses or the, you know, the points against what I’m making.

Kenneth Vogt (33:01):
Well now that’s, that’s a much stronger position if you can’t acknowledge the weaknesses or the detractors from whatever it is that that you are promoting, you’re not going to get very far. So this is, this is the more powerful stance to take. And I think about the Godfather movie, you know, keep your friends close in your enemies closer. And that’s, that’s all it is. It’s, you know, and I say, enemies, I’m using that word in air quotes. You know, the people that are not on the same side with you yet you gotta keep them close. You need to hear from people that are recognizing where the chinks in your armor are, because that’s how you will strengthen yourself.

Kenneth Vogt (33:45):
Now, another thing that evidence is that you’re listening to people is to ask them questions, clarifying questions. So, so you just said thus, and so does that mean XYZ? You know, get, get them, get them talking about their side. And again, just, it, it, it actually disengages their power. Cause now we’re saying, well, I’m not afraid of you. I’m not afraid of what you’re saying. Let’s, let’s, let’s look at it in all its glory and see if it stands up. You know? So obviously you have to have, you have to have your ducks in a row when you do that. Or, you know, they’re going to be cases where you have charismatically gone into, get something and you run up against some serious opposition. And as you listen to the opposition, you realize I need to go back to the drawing board. So it’s okay. Go back to the drawing board. You know, sometimes the you know caution is the better part of Valor, you know, it now it’s not the time. So, but this is how you find out. And this is how you’ll be able to, to come back in a stronger position later.

Kenneth Vogt (34:59):
So the, the third now we’ve mentioned presence, we’ve mentioned power. The third thing is warmth, warmth. And you think, man, what does warmth have to do in my, in this technical setting of what I’m doing now? Well, it may not have anything to do with the topic itself, but it does have to do with the people that is, you know, there are still people that have to do their jobs here. And in some cases you’re asking them to do a lot. Maybe you need a lot from that person or that group of people, if your mission is going to be fulfilled, well, you gotta be warm with them. You gotta, they gotta feel some fellow feeling they have the recognise in you that I understand this is a big ask, but it’s worth it. And here’s why it’s worth it. And here’s, here’s how we’re all gonna win. And here’s why we care, you know, those, those, that notion of caring and compassionate empathy, that sound like they’re so unnecessary in, in a scientific setting, but they aren’t necessarily because the scientific setting always has scientists and scientists are always human beings and human beings need that stuff.

Nick Oswald (36:14):
Yeah. And if you go back to the earlier example about, okay, so how do current or previous bosses that you’ve had or seen in operation? How do they stack up there? And, and in some cases like in any profession you can have bosses there that, that don’t have compassion. And then so they don’t care about how so much about how they’re, you know, how they set things up, how that affects the student, you know, the classic joke about, you know, the, just working the PhD students hard, for example for, and how much different would that be if it was done with compassion, it’s not that PhD, isn’t hard work. Of course it is. But if you have empathy about the fact that it is, and don’t just expect it to, you know, don’t, don’t just expect it because you say, you know, as the boss, then, then that’s a huge it’s a huge difference in the in the loyalty you would have from the, from your your PhD students, for example. And then it’s a huge difference in the experience for, for both of you, for the student and the, and the supervisor,

Kenneth Vogt (37:29):
Right? So you can imagine you really in your life, you know, lots of charismatic people and not just in the stereotypical places, you’d expect to find them. You do know people in the lab and in the university and in the company that are charismatic, some of them are so charismatic. You may look at that and say, I need to have them as a role model is almost a set too high a bar, but okay, fine. You have other people that are mildly charismatic or modestly charismatic, watch those people. What are they doing that you don’t do? What is it they’re willing to do that you aren’t, you know, in some cases it may be the simple thing is like what we were talking about earlier, being willing to listen to distractors, or maybe it’s the bother to, to set up what they say first that, you know, they begin with praise, for instance before they ask somebody to do something.

Kenneth Vogt (38:28):
And I don’t just mean in a manipulative way, you know, legitimate praise. And you’ll, you’ll start to see that, you know, actually you’ve got, you’ve got plenty of examples of charisma being used all around you all the time. So this is your opportunity to say, you know what, I’m going to join that crowd. And, I would recommend that you do it with good ethics. I think you get better results that way. And you know, that’s not to say that there aren’t people that are aren’t evil geniuses. It’s true. But is that what you want to be remembered as, or would you rather just be remembered as a genius and without charisma it’s a little hard, no one knows. No one knows about your genius. If you’re not being charismatic about it. So you, it, it’s something that’s worth reaching into. So just as we’ve talked about some other things in the past where we had six, six things you could use, there are six charisma factors, and we’re going to dig into them in the next two sessions. We’ll, we’ll cover three of them in each session. And I promise you that some of them will be ones that you would have never thought of as charisma. And you may be shocked to think I’ve got that already. So I’m just going to point it out to you so you can use it. We’ll also talk about, well, how can you make them better? How, here’s a factor, is there a way for me to, to amp up my ability with that factor? So just some, some things that, that you can bring to it.

Nick Oswald (40:04):
Yeah. I remember the first time you introduced these to me and you showed, you pointed out what my main, you know, main way to express charisma was. And I thought, I remember thinking, well, that’s great. Cause that’s easy because that’s me. And it doesn’t feel like you’re asking me to do something that or you’re saying that I would need to project charisma. I would need to do something that’s not natural to me, which was quite a relief.

Kenneth Vogt (40:30):
Yeah. Well, that’s it. You’re going to hear some things here that are going to be real natural for you. Some of you are going to hear a bunch you’re going to go, I can do that. And that, and that and that, and that’s great for others. You know, there’ll be one that stands out for you and it’s enough. So, you know, so Nick, you have have something in mind here. Maybe be a good wrap up there for just some bullet points that people can implement.

Nick Oswald (40:56):
Well, I mean, it’s, it’s quite it’s quite a, kind of a cliche, I suppose, to say that the best way to be charismatic and to influence people is to be yourself. I guess that you know, is to increase your presence, power and warmth by being yourself. And I guess what we’ll be talking about in the next two episodes is, is exactly how to do that is, is what, what switches can you use there, or what, you know, what can you turn up that you’re already doing that will allow you to, to to project those things while still being yourself. And I think you’ll be amazed at the results you get from it. Cool. So until the next time, I think we’ll leave it at that. Actually I have to mention one thing and that is the Facebook page. If you’ve not managed to convince you already that we should that you should join The Happy Scientist Facebook page, then this is another opportunity for you to do so. So then we will be discussing charisma factors, core mindsets, and a whole lot more inside the, The Happy Scientist Club, Facebook page, which you can find at The Happy Scientist Club, no, sorry, facebook.com/thehappyscientistclub. And you can ask us for for access and we will give it to you. So I hope to see you in there. So I think we’ll wrap it for today and we will see you in the next episode. All right. Thanks everyone.

Intro/Outro (42:36):
The happy scientist is brought to you by Bitesize Bio, your mentor in the lab. Bitesize Bio features, thousands of articles and webinars contributed by hundreds of PhD, scientists and scientific companies who freely offer their hard, won wisdom and solutions to the Bitesize Bio community.

Hosted by Dr. Nick Oswald featuring Kenneth Vogt of Vera Claritas.

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