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Episode 2 — Why You Need to Meet Your Human Needs Part 2

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About this episode

This is the second instalment in our three-part discussion about human needs. While we are all different as individuals, we necessarily all have the same basic mix of needs that must be satisfied if we are going to sustain any effort, and ultimately feel fulfilled and happy in our career. In this episode, we will identify the second set of these uniquely human requirements and how to implement their achievement in our day to day life and work.

Hosted by Dr. Nick Oswald featuring Kenneth Vogt of Vera Claritas.

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Please note that this is a Machine Transcription that may not be 100% accurate.

Intro/Outro (00:08):
This is The Happy Scientist podcast. Each episode is designed to make you more focused, more productive, and more satisfied in the lab. You can find us online at bitesizebio.com/happy scientist. Your hosts are Kenneth Vogt, founder of the executive coaching from Vera Claritas and Dr. Nick Oswald, PhD by a scientist and founder Bitesize Bio.

Nick Oswald (00:39):
Hello and welcome to the happy scientist podcast from Bitesize Bio. If you want to become a happier, healthier, and more productive scientist, you’re in the right place. I am Nick Oswald, the founder of Bitesize Bio, where we provide bio-science researchers with help for improving their technical skills, soft skills and wellbeing. And in this podcast, we’ll be focusing on the latter of these three areas with me. The driving force of the podcast is Kenneth Vogt. I’ve worked with Ken for over seven years now as my business mentor and colleague. And I know that his expertise will help a lot of researchers. And these sessions we’ll hear mostly from Ken on principles that will help shape you for a happier and more successful career. And along the way, I’ll pitch in with points from my personal experience as a scientist and from working with Ken, okay, let’s bring in the man himself. How are you today, Ken?

Kenneth Vogt (01:28):
I’m doing great. I want to, I want to take a little moment to introduce Nick to you folks. If you don’t really know who this man is, what he’s done, Bitesize Bio is an amazing place that is providing foundational, scientific, practical knowledge and experience of actual at the bench scientists. You know, there are thousands of articles and webinars that are available there. It’s, it’s, it’s truly amazing. And there’s nothing like it out there in the world. It is, it is a one of a kind and Nick is a PhD. Bioscientist? He, you know, he knows what he’s talking about here. He’s been in the lab just like you. So that’s, that’s why I came along because this is, this is some good company to be in. And we hope that we will be good company for you too. So we’re in the middle of a three part series, this is part two, talking about human needs, six human needs that everyone’s got, including you.

Kenneth Vogt (02:37):
Every bioscientist has these six human needs, and everybody has to have them satisfied or they won’t be happy. And whether they’re happy in their life, happy in their career, happy in their job, happy in the task they have in front of them right now, this is how to have that kind of energy of joy that can keep moving you forward, even when things are difficult, you’ll have a different experience with them. Now, in our last episode, you may remember, we talked about the first two human needs. They were certainty and variety. You have to have certainty in your life. There’s, there’s gotta be the opportunity to have reliability and safety and comfort, and in whatever’s happening with you and then variety, you need, you need stimulation physically, mentally, and emotionally, just like everybody else. And maybe you don’t in some ways, maybe more so. There are, there are groups of people that, you know, that choose certain professions for certain reasons.

Kenneth Vogt (03:42):
And it’s because of their mix of human needs. And there are some that map really well, and some that don’t map well, so we’re presuming that you’ve gotten this far, because this is a field you want to be in. Cause it wasn’t an easy one to get to you. You didn’t just fall into this. It’s, it’s something you worked hard to get to this place. And now that you’re here, quite likely, it’s not entirely what you expected because you know, what do we know when we’re young and innocent and naive, we do the best we can of picturing what the future will be like. But when the future shows up, it has its has its own nature. And so we’ve learned some few,you know, a few things and maybe there’ve been some delightful things you’ve learned that it’s even better than you thought.

Kenneth Vogt (04:31):
And yet there may be some disappointments too, or even some horror. So like, Oh, I never thought it would be like this. Well that’s, that is the kind of thing that happens to everybody. And one of the draws of science or any, any of the math science areas is the, the hard structure to it. The things you can count on, the things you can measure and that you can replicate that there’s again, that’s all talking about certainty, right? Like we talked about in the last episode that’s, that’s part of the draw of this, but there’s also the crazy amount of variety in that. Boy, you don’t always get the results you expect. And sometimes because of the story you tell yourself about it. That’s very disappointing. Other times, it’s very exciting. It’s like, wow, I didn’t think that was going to happen because then you start using your creative mind and just to make all the associations you can. Well, if this thing I thought was true, isn’t true. How does it change things? What other opportunities are available? What, what could happen? What could we do?

Kenneth Vogt (05:45):
I slide into a little anecdote and it’s a little outside of bio-science, but it’s still in science. And it was working with a company in Silicon Valley called applied materials. Applied materials does what their name implies. They make new materials that have certain, certain scientific characteristics. And then they make the machines to make those materials when that happens. And it all starts with somebody theorizing, you know, if we had a material that had these capabilities and had these characteristics, we can do certain things with them. And so the normal part of their day to day work is to invent materials that are not presently in existence and that’s their environment. And when, when I first came to work with Bitesize Bio, I really didn’t know anything about bio-science. And the thing about that that was shocking to me is I’ve been around a lot of industries and I had done a lot of things and I thought, ah, you know, what’s one more, no problem.

Kenneth Vogt (06:58):
I found out there was a whole universe of stuff out there that I didn’t know anything about. And I was around people now speaking in a language that I didn’t understand that I, you know, words I’d never heard before and concepts I’d never considered before. Well, that’s your world, that’s the world that you’re living in. And you know, for me, it provided all a lot of variety. I was learning all kinds of new stuff and it had been awhile since I had had an experience where there was so much for me to learn on a certainty level. It wasn’t feeding a lot of certainty. I was feeding the certainty because I was bringing the stuff that I was clear on to them. And so we had the, we had that, that mutual admiration society going on there for a little while of learning about each other. And, and again, that was part of the experience. So I’m telling you these anecdotes, so you can see some application of these human needs. So in this case about certainty and about variety from what happened with me. So maybe Nick, you could comment on that too when, when we first got together and started working together, what happened for you when it came to certainty and variety?

Nick Oswald (08:19):
Yeah, I think that again, as I mentioned in the last episode what was lacking for me was certainty. And and I solved that largely by reframing, but also you gave me you as well and so you can, you can certainly something, you can give someone else, give to someone else by and it’s a great thing to give to other people. And you can give it to by just giving them confidence in yourself, by reassuring them and by highlighting what they have that they can be certain about and so on. That that was a big thing that changed for me. And then, and then for me, the interesting relationship between certainty and variety is that if you don’t have certainty, you’re kind of locked into not experiencing variety because you’re always looking for it to be safe and the same, was, if you then allow yourself to have certainty, then suddenly you can see variety and you can see new opportunities popping up everywhere. Or even in the scientific context, you get to actually enjoy your results because you’re not requiring them. You as we talked about before, you reframe your job as someone who asks questions rather than who gets results, that gives you the certainty. And then when it comes to the results team, then you can enjoy them as the, as the, as the icing on the cake, not the, not the cake itself,

Kenneth Vogt (09:45):
Right? And you know, these, these human needs that we’re discussing, they build on each other. A saying that I like to use is when you’re up to your neck and alligators, it’s hard to remember your objective was to drain the swamp. So when you don’t have enough certainty, you can’t even be thinking about variety. It’s just, you know, you got to satisfy certainty first, but you’ll find you can’t satisfy it. And as long as you’re just focusing on satisfying your need for certainty, if you’re trying to satisfy other needs by substituting certainty, that’s not gonna work. So satisfy your need for certainty, then satisfy your need for variety. So the question then is, okay, what’s next? I remember we talked about context for these six human needs. And we said there are three contexts. There’s a personal context where we found certainty and variety. The next context is the group context.

Kenneth Vogt (10:42):
It’s yourself and the people that are close to you, it might be your colleagues, your boss, your subordinates, your family, your closest friends. And the third context is a universal context. It’s you and the world. And as we, as we move up the chain here out the circle you’ll find they get, they get more powerful, but they’re not any harder to satisfy. They’re just as, a need is, needs are pretty easy. Honestly, you think, well, that doesn’t match up with my experience. Well, you will find when you focus on them as the specific need, when you realize, Hey, this is the need I need to satisfy. Well, then it gets easy. What’s hard is like, I feel this slack and I don’t know what to do well. Yeah. Cause you haven’t, you’re not clear on what the lack is. So it is hard to tell, you know, we’ve all had that, that feeling that man, I need to eat something, but nothing feels right until you realize, what is my body actually calling for?

Kenneth Vogt (11:41):
Is it calling for calories right now? Is he calling for fat? Is a calling for salt. Is it calling for water? What is my body calling for? And when you figure it out, you’re like, well, yeah, I’m just thirsty. Well, okay then having a piece of chocolate cake probably didn’t help, you know, glass of water, maybe all you need, you know, it doesn’t even have to be anything fancy. So it’s the same thing with this. So we’re just, we’re giving you a framework of something simple that you can remember that at any given moment, you can just go, Oh, something’s not working right now. Okay. Let me tick down the list that, ta-da-ta-da-ta-da that’s the one, you know, it gives you an answer.

Nick Oswald (12:21):
And if you go, if you go to the graphic in the podcast, I mean, we’re, we are diving into each specific point on this matrix. But if you go to the to the show notes for this page, which you can find on Bitesizebio.com/podcasts, then you will see the full list of, of the human needs. And that’ll, that’ll help you to navigate this and to then to use it serve as a reminder for you to use it day to day.

Kenneth Vogt (12:52):
Sure. And it also, it also meant intrigued you to make sure you show up for the next next episode. So, Ooh, I want to, I want to hear about those two, but there’s two in this episode we haven’t even gotten to yet. So we’re going to get to them right now. We’re going to talk about the two in, in group context two human needs in group context. And once again the same format, there’s one that has an inward focus and one that has an outward focus. So if you’re in a group context, so it’s not just about you, but it’s about you and your, your, you know, the people you rub shoulders with the most, and you have an inward focus and there’s a need you have there. What would it be? Well, it would be significance. That is the need to feel special, important and attention worthy.

Kenneth Vogt (13:39):
Now you can see how that’s in a group context, because you want other people to make you feel special and important and attention worthy. You want their attention, you want their kudos. You want them to feel that you’re bringing something to the table that you’re adding value. And so you can imagine what this is like in simple context, like, you know, well yeah, I want my spouse to need me that, that, that matters to me. I want my spouse’s attention, but the same thing is true at work. Yeah. I want my boss to notice me. And I want my colleagues to think that I’m more than competent in this work that you know, that I’m, you know, I’m somebody that they’re proud to work with significance and it might be, I want, I need to see my name in print. That’s why you need to publish, you know, that’s why I need to, I need to finish this paper and get it out in the world because you’re looking for significance.

Kenneth Vogt (14:41):
Now you could look at that and say, well, you know, I don’t want to be a blowhard. I don’t just want to be an egomaniac and you’re right. You shouldn’t be that. But don’t throw the baby out with the bath water here. This need for significance is real and it’s powerful. And when you get it, you can power through a lot of things because of the significance that it will provide for you. You know that when I finish this, when I get this study done, I know that I’m going to get a lot of significance from people from this. They’re going to, they’re going to look at this and go, wow, that’s some good work. That’s, that’s really useful. That’s taking us forward. So this is, this is why you want to have significance in your life and why you need to have significance in your life.

Kenneth Vogt (15:28):
And now you look at this again, in a group context, it becomes a little more powerful in that. It’s not just about you anymore. And you can imagine it’s just like in, in your work, you don’t work entirely alone. There are other people that, that you’re engaged with. And if you had to do everything yourself, you know, there’s just not as much you could do. And you can even extend it out to like, if you had to invent the microscope you used, you had to invent that slow, that, that, you know flow cytometer. If you had to build them, you’d never get anything done. So the grouping up is, is really adding to things. If you had to develop every kit that you purchased, if you had to do that from scratch, you know, you wouldn’t have anywhere near as much accomplishment in your life. And there’s really no opportunity to get significance solely on your little Island, but yourself. So, I mean, it’s not that you can’t look at yourself and feel, you know, you can, you can feel important to yourself. You can give yourself attention. That’s true. But the fact is most of this is fed from people outside you. So

Nick Oswald (16:34):
That’s interesting. I was going to ask you what the, what the the link then between significance and self confidence is because part of being resilient is it not, is kind of being confident in yourself with, without needing other people to, to pull you up. What would you say is the balance there?

Kenneth Vogt (16:57):
Okay. yes I understand the difference between what you can receive from somebody and, and what you, what you’re craving from somebody you can long for something. And that can be a powerful draw, or you can crave it and it just never gets satisfied. And, I mean, this is why people eat junk food. For instance, it’s a craving, but you’ll have a longing for healthy food if you really paying attention to your body. So that’s the difference. You don’t, you don’t have to have a a concern that, Oh, I’m only gonna have this toxic desire for attention. You know, I just, I’m going to, I’m going to do crazy things to get attention, and you don’t have to do that. You know, some people actually do bad things. They break things, they start fights. They, they, they get into arguments because they’re seeking attention, but they’re doing it in a negative way that it’s not required.

Kenneth Vogt (18:00):
There’s you got to look at it and say, is there a way to do this? And in the light, as opposed to in the darkness, you can bring that to the table. The other thing I want to mention too, about what you said, self-confidence really is powerful and it’s very important, and I’m not talking about overconfidence. You know, the word confidence sometimes gets a bad rap because of overconfidence. Confidence is when you realize, you know what, I actually am credible. And the notion of imposter syndrome is, is rampant in science. Cause people go, yeah, sure. I have a PhD behind my name. If people only knew what an idiot I am.

Nick Oswald (18:42):
I, I, I’ve got a kid and maybe an anecdote about imposter syndrome that I tell people, especially when they come work with us. And you know, people who come to work with this who aren’t scientists, and for some reason, people get kind of a bit daunted about working with scientists as if, you know, there’s some, you know, it, wasn’t just that we learned something specific for a few years and then worked on it. You know, that there was some other area of, you know, it’s more, it means you’re more intelligent or something. That’s not that at all, but it’s easy to get odd. And I, the first job I took after my PhD, I moved to another country and I worked for a small biotech company. And we were working on figuring out how to make this new, make a new instrument. And in the first week that I was there, you know, all these guys, professors and so on, like round the table discussing a fundamental problem with the instrument.And I, I figured out what was wrong, but I didn’t say anything for the first three months because I thought no way, it’s that simple. And it turned out that it was, but I didn’t believe in even just the kind of, I was, I was odd. I thought that their scientific knowledge meant that my fundamental abilities were, were negated or were didn’t, didn’t really stack up. And so that, and then that costs the company time there cause it in three months to figure out the issue. But that, that was a real lesson to me that it’s not about the you know, you bring something fundamental to the table regardless of what your experience level is. And that can be just as valuable as experience.

Kenneth Vogt (20:23):
Oh, absolutely. Somebody who is inexperienced has something that they will never have again. You have a fresh set of eyes. It is so hard to go back to that. I mean, it’s, it can be done, but you don’t realize this thing. That’s actually natural for you. If you’re you’re new to the lab is something that the more experienced people they have to work at. So it’s an advantage. So take advantage of it. And you know, that’s the thing to recognize at any given moment, wherever you are in the moment, be confident about the things you can be confident about, and don’t worry about the things you can’t be confident about. Be aware of them. You’ll have humility. Humility is very, very powerful and people get that wrong all the time. They think, Oh, if you’re humble, you’re weak. And like, no, you have to be strong to be humble, to admit that you don’t know something is really, really powerful.

Kenneth Vogt (21:17):
So again, you can get, it’s interesting. You can get significance for your ignorance and your naivety and your innocence. If, if you couch them in proper humility, people will look at that. You know, that the fresh faced new scientists in the lab, all full of, of, you know of creativity and just aching for opportunity and, and, and is excited about discovery. I mean, those are, those are things to be confident in. You know, the, the, the idea of the power of youth is it’s real now, for those of us who are older, I don’t want to take away from us what we got, you know, if you’re bringing an experience to the table and you’ve got, you’ve got accolades behind you, by all means, stand on that, but don’t rest on your laurels. You know, you got to move forward, keep going, but it’s, in some point it can be easy to, to have significance, just keep coming to you.

Kenneth Vogt (22:18):
You know, I, I don’t have any trouble praising Nick every time I’m introducing him to somebody because, you know, he’s, he’s got the street cred, you know, and if you have that too, that can, that can solidify that significance. Now, if you find you’re, even in that, even when you’ve got all of that, you’re still not able to fill that hole, look around at the other human needs and see if you’re lacking there. And what you’re trying to do is use significance to fill a hole that would be better served by filling the hole for certainty or for variety or the other ones we’re going to discuss as we go along.

Kenneth Vogt (23:00):
So the next need within this group context, if we turn our focus now outward is for love and connection. That is the need for the love of family and friends, and to be connected to people, events and things. And I realized the word love is not used in business or laboratories very often. So if you want to just focus on the connection part, you can do that. The reason I put it in a phrase like this though, is because in other contexts in your life, love is definitely, definitely a better descriptor than merely connection. You’re not merely connected to your children. You love your children. You know, it’s a different, it’s a bit of a different experience, but connection is something you can have with strangers, you know, with somebody who you don’t even know their name, you know, and, and people that you have more you know, incidental interaction with the idea then is as you’re looking outward, it’s like, well, connection is something I have to instigate.

Kenneth Vogt (24:04):
Significance is something that other people give me, but connection, I have to cooperate in that. I have to be a part of it. And I may have to initiate it. So you can look around in your, in your work experience and say, you know, maybe I should be getting more connected to my colleagues. The people I work with, maybe I should be more interested in their lives. Maybe I should know their children’s names. And maybe I should know what part of town I live in, or, or, you know, same thing with, with your boss or even your bosses boss or other people in your industry. Making connections is a very powerful way of satisfying a deep need that everyone has.

Nick Oswald (24:49):
So that’s interesting that, that, that the the, the love and connection that you make the effort to meet with someone else feeds that person’s significance. And that comes back to you. So it’s a virtuous circle.

Kenneth Vogt (25:03):
Yeah. I’ll tell you a story about something that happened to me many years ago, I was working with a .com company during the flier times. It was just crazy, crazy time. So this company I was working with, it was constantly hiring people as were many companies then. So there were always new faces. And so I was out with, I was out to lunch with a group of engineers, and there was a new engineer that we had invited along. And so I think there were six of us there. So we sat down and, you know, start talking and, and for most of us, we were just first, this is our first introduction to this, this new person. Nope. We didn’t know him at all. And so I did, I, first thing I said is, so where do you come from? Cause so many of you, this is in Silicon Valley. And so many people were moving from other parts of the country. And so I, that’s the question I typically ask people to find out, you know, where’d you come from? Where, where did you get your degree? And one of the other guys, somebody that somebody that I’d known for a while, he said, see, just what I told you and what I said, the first thing that’s going to happen when you sit down is Ken is going to ask this, this person where they came from, because he’s done it to every one of us. And they all went, yup, that’s right!

Kenneth Vogt (26:29):
Well, it was just, to me, that was a simple way of making connection. It was show interest in this person and who is offended to hear where you come from. Why do you want to know that? Where’d you get your degree? No, I don’t usually talk about that. Like, come on, everybody talks about that stuff. You know it’s, it’s natural. And it’s again, just bothering to show some interest, to have a little curiosity about another human being and to find out now, obviously there’s some questions you don’t want to ask people. And there are some circumstances where questions that are okay or not. Okay, but you’ve got some life experience, you know, the difference, maybe the person who’s, who was going through a divorce, you don’t want to ask them about is about a spouse right now. But but for other people, it’s just like, yeah, yo, how, you know, what, what’s your wife up to these days?

Kenneth Vogt (27:23):
You know, she working somewhere, you know, is she also a scientist? What else is going on with you? And you find out little things about people. And then they share things that, that you’ve, wouldn’t even have thought to ask. And now you’ve made a deeper connection with somebody. And I think, well, how does, what does that have to do with this? Well, here’s what it has to do with that. Everything that we’re doing, we don’t, it’s hard to do it completely alone. So if you can just have somebody, you know, they got your back. If there’s somebody like, Hey, listen, I needed to start this, but I really, I haven’t, I haven’t eaten all day. I really need to grab some lunch. Can you, can you just watch this for 20 minutes while I go get a sandwich? Sure. Well, when you’ve got somebody that, you know, and they’re on friendly terms with them, they’re not only are they more likely to say yes, they’re, they’re more likely to be glad to say, yes, they’re not going to be put upon.

Kenneth Vogt (28:18):
They’re not going to feel like, Oh man, this guy, you know, Oh, he’s always taken off and leaving me with his dirt, you know? But no, instead like Nick just said, they feel a little significance, Oh, you, you know, you asked me because you trust me, you know, because you know, you can count on me. Well, they actually got something out of that too. So another way to look at this. Now, if you, if you’ve been thinking about your own significance and you’ve been thinking about your own love and connection and what you get from those things, now take that and look around you and think what would happen if I made people feel more significant, what if I’m made them feel more connected? What would that do for them? And when you see they’re lacking that because there are some people that are just, just crying out for significance all the time, and you might actually get tired of it, man.

Kenneth Vogt (29:11):
This person is always wants a pat on the head. They always want to be told that they’re the best. That they’re, that they’re really good at they’re right or that they they’re special. Oh, you know what, maybe they are lacking that in a deep way, in a variety and other parts of their life. And maybe you can fill that hole for them. And at what cost, you know, what does it cost you to be complimentary to somebody? What does it cost you to say, Whoa, that was a great conclusion, you know, or that was a great presentation, or I love how fastidious you were about how you did that study. You know, how does that hurt you? It doesn’t cost a thing and it could do a lot of good. And then you’re, you’re feeding back into your own connection via offering other people’s significance. So Nick in your world, you know, you’ve got a company now that it’s virtual with people literally all over the world, how are you connecting to people when they’re distant?

Nick Oswald (30:17):
I mean, one thing I always make a point of doing but some is to is to get an understanding of what is the special thing people are bringing to the table. Well, you know, we’re talking about this in a work context, so everybody’s bringing something specific to the table. And that can be some, just innate thing that they have, maybe they’re well organized or maybe they’re very personable. Maybe they’re good at speaking. Maybe they’ve got a specific technical ability or, or whatever. And then I try and focus on with those. When, when I work with any, when I work with people, I try and focus on making sure that they know that I I am aware of that characteristic that they have, and I appreciate it. And, and I and contrast it with myself maybe. And so that to show that this, that this is how we all fit together and then encourage them to, you know, if they want to go into, to, if they’re moving into a new project or something to try and bring that that perspective or that characteristic in, for example.

Nick Oswald (31:29):
And then it allows them to see, especially alluding back to what I said earlier about people being a bit intimidated by working with scientists. If I can say to them, well, look, I’m not a particularly organized person. I don’t think in that way. And so you are, and that means you and I dovetail in that way. And it doesn’t matter what I’m, you know, what you think I’m good at. I appreciate that you are good at this part, and this is how this all fits together. So everyone has a role to play

Kenneth Vogt (32:01):
Exactly. Sometimes when, when you are the boss, you know, or, or your, you know, you’re head of the project or whatever, it can be a little easier to give away that kind of, that kind of compliment or that make that kind of humble statement because you’re, you know, you’re in a secure position where it can be harder for people is when they’re, when they’re the subordinate like. You know, without feeling like I’m just, you know, I don’t want it to sound like a suck up to the boss, but sometimes it’s useful to say to a colleague that, you know, there’s this part, this you’re better at than me. And I can use your help. That, just that, that phrase, that phrase, can you help me is very, very powerful.

Nick Oswald (32:50):
Definitely. Yeah. And people up, the people who are more experienced than you, they love to be asked for experience, ask for help. That’s a real compliment to them. And so that’s a way to, to both get, get some good input for yourself, but also to make a connection with people and give them significance

Kenneth Vogt (33:10):
Right now, on the other side of this, for your own significance sake, somebody asks you for help and you may think, Oh, if I teach them and they’ll be as good as me and then where will I be? And when you think you’re going to, you’re just going to hurt your significance. But it doesn’t when you share with others, your you still have your experience. You’ve merely gave them a window into your experience. They’re going to still have to go out and get their own experience. It’s going to take awhile. And meanwhile, you’re going to be getting more experience. So don’t worry about that. You know, back in the day, you know, my career started in computer science as a computer programmer. And it seemed like every year there was a new computer language and a bunch of new kids, newly minted out of, out of college who knew that language.

Kenneth Vogt (34:00):
And I went along and I had, at one point, I realized I had, I was competent in 14 computer languages. I mean, I actually knew how to use them. It wasn’t just like, Oh, I heard of them. And I thought, well, surely by now I know a language. Do any possible project that come along, I don’t have to worry about it. I’m I’m done. I’ve, I’ve learned it all. And then the project came along where I needed to learn another language, as I thought, that’s it. I can’t do this anymore. It’s just impossible to keep up. But then I thought, you know, so here was, I was concerned about my significance. And then I realized, wait a minute, I’ve got a lot of experience. And these kids come out of school and they got nothing and yes, they know how to code, but they don’t know what to code.

Kenneth Vogt (34:47):
Well, I know what to code in my sleep. You know, the language is just the last step, you know? And, and I found then that as I connected with people and I helped them and I mentored them along, they were so grateful to have somebody give them some direction. So you may find yourself at some point in your career getting to that point where you realize, instead of trying to be up on the latest and greatest of everything, which is just about impossible, it’s just too big a world. Then instead you become, you can become an elder statesman and you can, you can take on a different role in the lab. And, you know, I understand, you know, there are management tracks, but there also the professional track where you can, you can stay in the lab and, and be that that’s not for everybody. If the management track works for you or you want to, you want to go and, you know, switch over to the, say the commercial team in your company, that’s all good, whatever, whatever you want to do, just make sure that you’re getting significance out of what you’re doing and make sure that you’re making connections as you’re doing it. And you’re going to find, you’re going to be satisfied. You’re going to be happy. You will be happy scientist.

Kenneth Vogt (36:04):
So I think, is there anything else you want to add in reference to significance or love and connection

Nick Oswald (36:10):
It just occurred to me there is, it’s funny, the more I look at this, the more sort of connections come up. And what I was thinking was that, where do you have, you know, people who are, they’re afraid to give away compliments or praise or acknowledgement that someone is good at something or whatever, you know, to make love and connection, it can often be because they’re lacking significance themselves. And then cure to that is, is love and connection from other people. And so when you look at it like that, where we, you truly are with all of the people that you interact with, it’s a network where you’re all feeding each other. So it’s that be the change you want to see thing if you if you want more significance, give more love and connection. If you want more love and connection, give more significance and to yourself, or get more significance. And it all just feeds itself. And that is beautiful. That’s interesting.

Kenneth Vogt (37:09):
He’s really has applied this stuff. He has put this into practice and he’s telling you how it works. So I want to comment right now, we’re course still in that that COVID phases, this is being recorded. So we are recording from home. And I don’t know if anybody picked up my cat seeking significance in the background there.

Nick Oswald (37:30):
I did hear that. Yeah,

Kenneth Vogt (37:33):
It happens sometimes. And so again, this is, this is a humility moment saying, you know, I know this is the perfect environment. I’m not in a, in a studio with an engineer and all that, but, but we still felt we could do, do a great job for, for you the listener. And so we’re, we’re taking it under the chin and, and working in the environments that we can. So as we can get things done for you, all right, well, that is a wrap for this episode. The next episode, we’re going to finish up with the universal context in the last two human needs, but you know, I want to remind you now, go out in the world and look for this. Look for opportunities to, for significance, look for opportunities for connection watch when you’re not feeling happy about things you’re not feeling successful. And see, is there any significance missing here? Is there any connection missing here? And when things are working watch for how was, how did it feed my significance or my connection? And of course, watch other people as they’re struggling. And see, is there some way I can bolster their significance or, make a better connection with them.

Nick Oswald (38:36):
Yeah. And definitely don’t load that go to the show notes for the, for this podcast, you’ll find it at Bitesizebio.com/Podcast and download the graphic that explains the whole you know, the whole set of human needs. And that will help you to, you know, to, to put this framework together in your head. And you can use that to, if you know what to look for to look at what’s going on around you. And then also you can come and join us on The Happy Scientist club, Facebook page, which is facebook.com/thehappyscientistclub all one word. We’ll see you in there and you can come and tell us how you’re, how you are getting on with looking at, for human needs and how they are affecting your life.

Kenneth Vogt (39:29):
Right? And if you have questions, we will definitely be monitoring and we will, we will do our best to interact with people and fill in the holes if there are any.

Nick Oswald (39:39):
Definitely. Okay. And so, with that, just leaves it to sign off and say,thanks to you all for joining us. And we’ll see you next time for the next episode of the happy scientist.

Kenneth Vogt (39:52):
All right, bye.

Intro/Outro (39:59):
The scientist is brought to you by Bitesize Bio, your mentor in the lab. Bitesize Bio features thousands of articles and webinars contributed by hundreds of PhD scientists and scientific companies who freely offer their hard, won wisdom and solutions to the Bitesize Bio community.

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